My massive impact - A real life tale of small car vs large car safety.

[Danny]

Guys/Gals,

Thought I might post this here as a bit of real life experience on the large car V small car debate, and offer a little insight into just how fantastic small car safety has come in the last decade or so.

This morning an old guy turned right in front of me on a red arrow in a 70km/h zone (Might have been 80 - can't remember). No warning, and no time to stop.

I hit him in my Megane 250 coming north through the intersection, most likely doing on or a little below the speed limit (hardly any time to brake, he turned no less than 5 or 10 metres before I approached him).

My front drivers side corner hit his passenger side corner at full whack, God I've never felt an impact like that in my life! On impact, the two front airbags deployed (no need for the curtains or side bags so some lucky bugger will be able to salvage themselves a couple of leather Recaro's), the Megane spun 90 degrees to the west, hit a traffic light, bounced off, and then slid across the road toward the south again coming to rest on the side of the road like I had parked it there.

The doors unlocked, the lights turned on, the fuel pump turned off, and the hazard lights activated. I pulled the handbrake, opened the door, and walked away like a boss. No one could beleive I was the driver, the most stressful part was imporing people not to fuss over me (although the ambo's took me away as a precaution, rightly ignoring my arguments to leave me there to walk home), and to look after the old bugger in the other car who looked to be having a panic attack (He was in his 70's).

The other car? A D40 Navara, with a massive aftermarket bullbar, and big wheels and tyres. thats right, my little Renault hit a Navara near head on at 60-70km/h, and I walked away.



To think that I walked away from a 60-70km/h impact with a 4X4 with bullbar without serious injury speaks volumes for not only Renault, but small car safety. My next weekend car will surely be something modern and 5 star NCAP rating.



If I had children of driving age (and one day I will), I'll be happy to have them in a smaller car with great safety credentials. That car saved my life today. I'll miss it terribly, but it can be replaced. I'm just happy that I'll live to see another day.

Stay safe guys.

[Legit290]

I'm glad you weren't injured.

[RB Snake]

This guys driving seriously needs to be tested. It's dangerous to have these sorts of people on the road, there could have been kids on that car. Luckily it was you only in the car and you were able to walk away safely, split second there could be the difference. Sad to see a nice car like that in it's current state, but it did it's job well (protecting you that is).

[Franco Cozzo]

Welcome to my club You're the second member.

I t-boned a late 80s Rodeo a few weeks after I bought my Focus new in 2011:







I hit with my front left corner as I swerved hard right to avoid him, left side of the car was pushed back to the passenger door and none of the doors on that side of the car would open.

I walked out of it with minor burns on my face from the airbag and purple bruising around my chest and lower stomach from the seat belt.

How loud were the airbags? Mine made me deaf for a good 30 seconds and ringing in my ears for a few days.

I didn't have any ambos just a very angry cop who was ****ed off he was standing in the middle of the road with me and some other guy instead of being at home with his family lol.

We've both got good ammo against the nay-sayers on the small car 5 star safety rating debate.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Welcome to my club You're the second member.

I t-boned a late 80s Rodeo a few weeks after I bought my Focus new in 2011:

I hit with my front left corner as I swerved hard right to avoid him, left side of the car was pushed back to the passenger door and none of the doors on that side of the car would open.

I walked out of it with minor burns on my face from the airbag and purple bruising around my chest and lower stomach from the seat belt.

How loud were the airbags? Mine made me deaf for a good 30 seconds and ringing in my ears for a few days.

I didn't have any ambos just a very angry cop who was ****ed off he was standing in the middle of the road with me and some other guy instead of being at home with his family lol.

Ah, thought I might hear from you, thought of the similarities of your smash not long after TBH.

We had Firey's, Ambo's, Divvy Vans and HWP. Twas such a scene, now theres sand all over the road and oil signs (for some reason the navara shot its diesel and oil all over the shop - Meggy lost all her coolant).

To be truthful, the impact was so massive that the sound of the impact in general was enough to blend in with the airbag sounds, I expected a lot worse truthfully. What the airbags did do was fire up so bright that I had a camera flash like retina burn for a good 5 or 10 minutes. For some reason Renault airbags commonly fill up with a flame for the split second. No burns though, but the smell of the propellant gas will stick with me and give me PTSD for ever!!

Car filled up with so much airbag smoke it stung my eyes, there was an extunguisher under the car seat that I had out on the ready just in case, and I would recommend having one. Handy if you're ever trapped in a burning car.

I do feel for the old bloke, it's very easy to cry foul and demand he lose his right to drive, but he was really spooked. He was a queenslander, some bright spark tooted him from behind, and he apparently thought that they were tooting him to turn (and assuming the red arrow didnt apply to him) so in a panic, he turned in front of me.

Tell you what, I ususally avoid tooting other motorists for that exact reason. Now I know the consequences can be potentially disastrous!

[Madaya]

. He was a queenslander, some bright spark tooted him from behind, and he apparently thought that they were tooting him to turn (and assuming the red arrow didnt apply to him) so in a panic, he turned in front of me.

Tell you what, I ususally avoid tooting other motorists for that exact reason. Now I know the consequences can be potentially disastrous![/QUOTE]

Funny that, I was in QLD last year, Brisbane, and I noted a bit of tooting going on when the lights or arrows turned green = weird. Give the guy time to get 1st gear. Back in pommy land, the lights go red, amber, green, in quick order. Gives the driver time to grab 1st and off you go.
Why Oz gives such the logic he flick beats me. I hate how they turn traffic lights away from the waiting traffic. Some safety idiot thinks it will avoid traffic light drags = duhh. Idiots will always drag, but it would give us folk time to look left and right and proceed on the green..
Glad you are okay.
The old fart in the 4 wheel drive,,, did he have any off the beaten track scars that verified his need for a 4wd? Probably not.

[SumoDog68]

Originally Posted by Madaya

. He was a queenslander, some bright spark tooted him from behind, and he apparently thought that they were tooting him to turn (and assuming the red arrow didnt apply to him) so in a panic, he turned in front of me.

Tell you what, I ususally avoid tooting other motorists for that exact reason. Now I know the consequences can be potentially disastrous!

Funny that, I was in QLD last year, Brisbane, and I noted a bit of tooting going on when the lights or arrows turned green = weird. Give the guy time to get 1st gear. Back in pommy land, the lights go red, amber, green, in quick order. Gives the driver time to grab 1st and off you go.
Why Oz gives such the logic he flick beats me. I hate how they turn traffic lights away from the waiting traffic. Some safety idiot thinks it will avoid traffic light drags = duhh. Idiots will always drag, but it would give us folk time to look left and right and proceed on the green..
Glad you are okay.
The old fart in the 4 wheel drive,,, did he have any off the beaten track scars that verified his need for a 4wd? Probably not.[/QUOTE]

Not sure what are you trying to say regarding green lights and delay when grabbing the first gear - most cars in Oz are auto transmission ...
Other thing is we don't verify anyone's needs for anything including the need for 4wd - it is a free country and people choose what they like and need.

[NX74205]

Thanks for sharing, glad to hear you're ok. Small car safety has indeed come a long way since a decade ago: there's no reason to feel any less safe in one than in a big car.

Are you getting another Megane?

[XR Martin]

Good to hear you are ok, might be a bit sore tomorrow though!


Megane is like 1400kg isnt it? Not really a small car however.

[Revolver]

It'll buff out.

[pottery beige]

**** decent shunt, good to hear youre ok bud

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Revolver

It'll buff out.

My mate is a graphic designer specialising in entire vehicle wraps. First thing I asked was if we can just cover it with some faux Carbon Fibre?

Ill just tuck the airbag back in and no one will ever know right??

[Revolver]

Originally Posted by Danny

My mate is a graphic designer specialising in entire vehicle wraps. First thing I asked was if we can just cover it with some faux Carbon Fibre?

Ill just tuck the airbag back in and no one will ever know right??

Genuine LOL there.

I believe Topgear did the same thin to an earlier megane a few years ago and the bloke who crashed it came out not a mark. Good to see it works in real world situations too

[turbodewd]

ANCrAP is still flawed. Its great that a small car can get 5 stars, but the notion that it should get the exact same rating as a large safe Merc is absurd. The Merc should be able to get 5.5 or 6.

Their full frontal offset crash pits a car vs another of a SIMILAR MASS. This is absurd. You should have a control. Make all cars collide with a Territory-mass object. In preparing for safety you assume the worst. Make all cars crash into a 2000kg object.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by turbodewd

ANCrAP is still flawed. Its great that a small car can get 5 stars, but the notion that it should get the exact same rating as a large safe Merc is absurd. The Merc should be able to get 5.5 or 6.

Their full frontal offset crash pits a car vs another of a SIMILAR MASS. This is absurd. You should have a control. Make all cars collide with a Territory-mass object. In preparing for safety you assume the worst. Make all cars crash into a 2000kg object.

All cars get same tests for ANCAP rating!

Car Safety Ratings Explained.

Be guided by the stars.

ANCAP awards a star rating from 1 to 5 for each vehicle following independent crash tests by independent specialist laboratories.
New vehicles are awarded or deducted points based on a combination of test categories and scientific criteria. All vehicles are assessed under identical testings standards and conditions.
In all tests, dummies are used to measure the various forces on the occupants in a crash. The data gathered is then assessed, using internationally recognised protocols and star-ratings are determined for each crash test.
Observations are also made on the displacement of dummies during the crash, as well as the structural impact on the vehicle's occupant compartment.
Points are also awarded if the vehicle is fitted with safety features such as Anti-lock Braking System (ABS) Electronic Stability Control (ESC) and seat belt reminders.
To achieve an ANCAP 5 Star rating, a vehicle must achieve the highest international recognised standards in all test categories.

[XR Martin]

4wd/tall vehicles get full points for side impacts too, despite not being actually tested. Its because the test is based on an impact from an car, and is deemed that a higher vehicle will always perform well in this type test. Thus maximum points are given.

[b2428]

I think I would still much prefer to have a prang in a 5 star car of medium size which most small cars are these days vs say an e serius or au series falcon. For example the missus has a Pulsar which from memory is a 5 star car. I have seen a crash video of said car and it holds up very well.

One thing though that must be kept in mind, well from what I understand and have witnessed with my limited road crash rescue experience is that every accident is different and there are so many variable such as angle of collision that seem to mean that the results can vary a fair bit. Thats just my view anyway.

[XR Martin]

In the US the IIHS has been doing small overlap offset (20% as opposed to 50%) crashes and alot of cars are doing quite poorly. Very few manufacturers are designing cars to withstand these type impacts and its showing in the tests.

Heres a Hyundai Accent for example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NShjLMI14tg

vs a Volvo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6H0UctkKSc

[b2428]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

In the US the IIHS has been doing small overlap offset (20% as opposed to 50%) crashes and alot of cars are doing quite poorly. Very few manufacturers are designing cars to withstand these type impacts and its showing in the tests.

Heres a Hyundai Accent for example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NShjLMI14tg

vs a Volvo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6H0UctkKSc

After viewing the video links.. Makes you wonder about which one is more common. I wouldnt mind betting that the small overlap accident is more common then we know about..

[malazn mafia]

Small cars have come a long way. Got hit by a Volvo F M dump truck at a set of lights in a 2011 corolla sedan. Dominoed 4 cars in front. The impact was that great, I was flung into the steering wheel and back into the headrest at full force and saw stars for a minute, felt like I was king hit. Clambered out of the car, got the idiot's details (he was pale white, probably thought he had killed me) and then drove off. The Volvo F M however had to be towed as he lost all his coolant. The corolla, newly transformed into a hatchback with a stoved in front drove around like nothing had happened for 3 days before I sent it for insurance work.

[marcyeo]

I will admit that in this case I was at fault - hitting the back of a ute at 60km/hr (he was stationary in the left lane), but despite both airbags going off, I still had my sunnies on my face untouched and walked away unscathed.
Car was written off (to my utter despair and sadness but no one to blame but myself) - and on inspection the front engine bay had been pushed in at least 2 feet).

Crumple zones in all our Fords ( and obviously all small cars) these days are impressive and are truly to be commended that all parties could walk away with their lives intact. I am very lucky to be alive and am thankful to the technology that has gone into our modern cars to keep us all in 1 piece.

[zilo]

Glad the OP got out without a scratch

Devil's advocate here...


Got a photo of the Navara to compare the relative damage?

BTW...I don't mind a good happy story...but that doesn't look like an 70km/h head on impact, I say about 45km/h

(cause you would be typing from a hospital bed at 70km)

[Danny]

Originally Posted by zilo

BTW...I don't mind a good happy story...but that doesn't look like an 70km/h head on impact, I say about 45km/h

(cause you would be typing from a hospital bed at 70km)

45.

45!?? Are you seriously trying to tell me what happened from what you see in a photo? I don't care if you're an ambo, an SES or whatever it is that gives you such expertise to make such an assumption, but I was actually there mate, I was driving! I was the passgenger in a 1400kg pinball for a few seconds or so as the energy of the impact dissipated and I came to a rest. 45km/h and I wouldn't likely have speared off, bounced off a pole, then ended up 15-20m SW of my original position. 45km/h, and the Airbags likely wouldn't have deployed.

Try telling the aches and pains in my body right now that I was doing 45km/h when i hit that Navara (Which mind you was missing nearly its whole front corner and wheel, not to mention all the diesel and oil it ****ed out of its shattered engine. When I was ushered past, I saw the poor old bloke was on oxygen, with ecg wires hanging off him and being attended to by the MICA Paramendic from the drivers seat.

I was forced to go to the hospital by the Paramedics, and reccomended to wear a neck brace as a precaution to the mechanics of the high speed impact, which I stubbornly refused. They gave me chest X- Rays, stuck about 20 ECG dots on my chest (loved pulling those off), and held me there for 4 or 5 hours until I begged them to let me leave.

The whole reason I posted this up was to give a real account of this sort of situation. If I was doing 45 km/h and experienced devastation like this, I wouldn't have bothered posting this up to give a real account of small car V 4x4. The fact that I was in a 70k zone and had little to NO time to brake speaks for itself.

Like I said, this was as close to a 60-70km/h impact as you could get, and the fact I hit the kind of vehicle I hit at that speed and walked away is damn amazing. There are a lot of men and women on FF who have children approaching driving age, I feel it is the right thing to do, to share some real world experience in how far safety has come in the small car sector.

If you'll excuse my irritation, I had one of the most restless and painful sleeps of my life last night, I am extremely sore. I wouldn't wish this upon anyone.

Peace.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by zilo

Glad the OP got out without a scratch

Devil's advocate here...


Got a photo of the Navara to compare the relative damage?

BTW...I don't mind a good happy story...but that doesn't look like an 70km/h head on impact, I say about 45km/h

(cause you would be typing from a hospital bed at 70km)

Much more than 45km/h, closer to 70km/h

I really do love the many years of theoretical experience in this threads.

[Franco Cozzo]

If its a T-bone accident the other car won't have nearly as much damage as it will easily get pushed away by the impact and end up somewhere else, mine doesn't look bad but impact was around 80-90km/h and I knocked the guys Rodeo from the right lane on the road into the trees on the grass on the left.

Same thing, jammed on the brakes, swerve and impact right away.

[BrisVegas]

Glad to hear you weren't seriously injured or worse mate. Testament to the safety of your Megane. When we had kids of our own we ditched the old clunker and got into a 5 star Ford Focus and subsequently a Fiesta.

When my daughters are driving age, I'll do whatever I can to get them into a modern and safe vehicle.

[cheap]

People need to take ANCAP with a dose of salt.

ANCAP is used for marketing purposes by the manufacturers, I'm forming the opinion that people think they have somehow acquired invulnerability with their 5 star rated small cars hence they drive accordingly. Unfortunately we live in a real work, where the laws of mass, velocity and energy transfer don't give a hoot about star ratings.

ANCAP says as much on their website. A small car with 5 Star ANCAP involved in a collision with a larger more massive 3-4-5 Star ANCAP rated may not give you the survivability you think you have.

As for hitting the Navara it would be a rather soft target given that you hit it mid section where it has many air gaps. A head on with the Navara would be a different situation for everyone.

Just remember when you're driving you're either a hammer or a nail.

[Danny]

Cheap Mate, how lightly did you read my account???

My drivers side corner hit his pax side corner!!

It is ALL there in black and white, what else do you want???

I did NOT hit the door of his car. I hit the passenger side corner, the wheel (of which you can see the circular indent on my bumper) and his bullbar (which you can also see the indent in the bonnet) hit the exact same part of my car (only on my drivers side).

There's no sensationalism here, just fact and real life experience. Tell me more about how my accident went down based on your ye olde worlde assumption..

It's black and white, my front hit his front, he was in a Navara with bullbar (whose whole front corner was taken out, I was in a small Megane, I'm still kicking. End of story.

If you're here to try and tell me that small cars are still unsafe and try and discount my story, kindly visit another thread, I'm sore and tired and not in the mood to be challenged by the AFF keyboard serious crash unit.

EDITED: For my colourful language. I am sorry, I'm just a little irritable :P

[Nanoraptor]

Originally Posted by Danny

There's no sensationalism here, just fact and real life experience. Tell me more about how my accident went down based on your ye olde worlde assumption..

It's black and white, my front hit his front, he was in a Navara with bullbar (whose whole front corner was taken out, I was in a small Megane, I'm still kicking. End of story.

I'm waiting for someone to post that you don't need airbags and all this modern safety hoohaa, you just gotta learn how to brace properly before impact.

(A common enough sentiment from my early petrolhead days in the early 90s!)

I'm impressed. The little renault did its last job admirably - glad you're OK.

[cheap]

Originally Posted by Danny

Cheap Mate, how lightly did you read my account???

My drivers side corner hit his pax side corner!!

It is ALL there in black and white, what else do you want???

I did NOT hit the door of his car. I hit the passenger side corner, the wheel (of which you can see the circular indent on my bumper) and his bullbar (which you can also see the indent in the bonnet) hit the exact same part of my car (only on my drivers side).

There's no sensationalism here, just fact and real life experience. Tell me more about how my accident went down based on your ye olde worlde assumption..

It's black and white, my front hit his front, he was in a Navara with bullbar (whose whole front corner was taken out, I was in a small Megane, I'm still kicking. End of story.

If you're here to try and tell me that small cars are still unsafe and try and discount my story, kindly visit another thread, I'm sore and tired and not in the mood to be challenged by the AFF keyboard serious crash unit.

EDITED: For my colourful language. I am sorry, I'm just a little irritable :P

Not trying to be a smart ****, however small cars provide limited safety, even with 5 star ratings.

Here is a layman's explanation, http://www.edmunds.com/car-safety/ar...arge-cars.html

It's a fact of physics: Larger vehicles are safer than smaller vehicles. But not everyone is cut out to drive a large car. Small cars are less expensive, easier to park and get better fuel economy than larger ones. And with gas prices on an upward creep, consumers shopping for a fuel-efficient vehicle are already gravitating toward smaller cars. But by doing so, will they put themselves at risk in an accident? There's bad news and good news on this front.

The bad news is that smaller, lighter cars are generally not as safe as larger, heavier cars. Large vehicles have longer hoods and bigger crush zones, which gives them an advantage in frontal crashes.

In studies conducted by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS), a heavier vehicle will typically push a lighter one backward during the impact. As a result, there will be less force on the occupants of the heavier vehicle and more on those in the lighter vehicle, according to IIHS.

Improvements in Small Car Safety
The good news is that small cars are safer than ever. Indeed, every vehicle size category has seen a substantial decrease in fatalities over the past six years.

"Historically, the rates of driver deaths per million registered vehicles have been higher for the smaller and lighter vehicles. This was true again in 2011, but the differences were less extreme than they used to be," concluded an IIHS report.

The keys to a car's ability to keep you alive during a crash involve safety equipment, the vehicle's weight and its resistance to rolling over. While small cars don't roll over easily, they lack weight and, until recently, were less likely to have advanced safety features like electronic stability control (ESC) or full side airbags. ESC has become an increasingly common feature over the past few years and is now required standard equipment on every 2012 and newer vehicle. And as of the 2012 model year, side airbags were standard on 84 percent of vehicles.

According to the 2011 IIHS figures, fatalities per million registered vehicles decreased 55 percent for the mini car category and 47 percent for the small car category. There was a 51 percent decrease in fatalities for midsize cars and 45 percent for large sedans.

Smaller cars have benefited from advances in structural materials, says Chuck Thomas, chief engineer of Honda's automotive safety research facility in Ohio.

"There are many new materials that are available to us now, such as hot-press steel, that were not available in the early 2000s," Thomas says. Honda has integrated those materials into its vehicles to improve their structure and keep the space around the occupants protected, Thomas says.

And to help reduce injuries in accidents involving cars of different sizes, Honda in 2005 developed a safety technology called "Advanced Compatibility Engineering" (ACE, now ACEII on newer vehicles), which disperses the impact forces of a frontal collision. On smaller cars with ACE, there is more reinforcement on the upper portion of the hood, where a larger vehicle would be more likely to strike it.

SUVs Are Safer Now
In the SUV category, the fatality rate dropped substantially across all size levels. Midsize and large SUVs fared the best, with 16 and 14 deaths per million, respectively. Midsize SUVs improved by 72 percent from 2005, while large SUVs saw a 71 percent improvement.

SUVs benefit by being taller, and thus are less likely to slide under another vehicle in a crash (a situation called "underride"). But in the past, SUVs had some of the highest death rates because they were prone to rollover crashes, and that tendency outweighed any size advantage.

"The problem with old SUVs [where ESC was an option or not available] is that while they have the advantage of size and weight, that benefit is offset by their greater propensity to roll over in crashes," says Russ Rader, senior vice president of communications for the IIHS. "The rollover problem has been greatly reduced by ESC, which is now standard on all passenger vehicles, and new SUV designs that are more carlike and less top-heavy."

The exception to the bigger-is-better rule comes with pickup trucks, because of their tendency to roll over. Still, ESC has helped decrease the fatality rate in pickups significantly over the past six years, Rader says.

For all categories, it's important to put the fatality figures into perspective. They describe the differences per million registered vehicles, so no matter what size vehicle you are in, your chances of dying are relatively small, while your chances of surviving a crash are improving over time.

"Crash fatality rates for all vehicle sizes are dropping from year to year," said Rader.

Crash-Test Confusion
One thing that can cloud the safety picture for car buyers is the fact that cars of various sizes can win identical safety ratings, making it seem that a small car is just as safe as a large SUV. But it's not so.

The federal government has its Five-Star Safety Ratings, which are available at the Safercar.gov site, administered by National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA). IIHS does its own crash tests and rates cars from "Good" to "Poor," based on the driver's ability to survive a crash.

It's important for car buyers to keep in mind that these ratings are only useful when comparing cars within the same size class. If a small car has a five-star rating from NHTSA, that doesn't mean it will protect you as well as five-star-rated large sedan. The same holds true for an IIHS "Good" rating.

"The ratings are meant to be used to compare crashes with vehicles of similar size," says Adrian Lund, president of the IIHS. "You can't really go between the segments with these ratings."

IIHS produced this video in 2009 to illustrate the differences in what happens to different-size cars in a crash: The smaller car loses. As Lund says in the video, "While all cars have gotten safer in recent years, you can't repeal the laws of physics."

No crash-test program can cover every car accident scenario, but if you buy a car that scores well in the IIHS and NHTSA tests, your chances for avoiding serious injury or death significantly improve, regardless of the vehicle's size. This is good news for the small-car buyer who is looking for good fuel mileage as well as safety.

But if you were traveling in a car that was rated "Poor" and got hit by a car rated "Good" in an accident that could produce fatalities, you would be four times more likely to be killed than the other driver, according to a 2005 IIHS study. The vehicles compared were of similar size and weight. Numbers from NHTSA also bear this out: The lower a car's crash-test rating, the more likely you are to be seriously injured in an accident.

Old vs. New
To recap: All cars are getting safer, but bigger cars still are safer than small cars. That applies even in a matchup between a new small car and a 5-year-old larger car.

"The bottom line is that bigger and heavier is still better," Rader says. "A heavy, large car from five years ago, given similar safety equipment like side airbags, will be more protective than a 2013 model that is small and lightweight." Because of the tendency to roll over, a 5-year-old SUV would probably trump a new small car only if the SUV had electronic stability control.