How Ford can build the XR8 and G8E

[StrikeTwiceXR6]

Honestly, who's going to buy an N/A XR8? Obviously it would be all the people that didn't buy an FG XR8, because they sold like hot cakes didn't they!!!!

[ratter]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

I think its more a case of .... "How Ford can build the XR8 and G8E so I can buy one second hand"

This is my thoughts exactly, doesn't really help ford does it

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Pepscobra

If Ford put a detuned version of the SC 5.0L in an XR8/G8E and sold it for $50-55K, they would not have to spend any extra on compliance/engineering, would sell a bunch and would further recover that $40M investment on the Miami motor.

Well firstly if they changed the tune they will still have to do a lot of testing for compliance.

Secondly it is quite easy to buy a GS for $55k and they are not "selling a bunch" while the previous XR8 was dropped to $45k and STILL did not sell.
Why would anyone pay $55k for an XR8 that is slower than and identical car with a GS badge that costs exactly the same money?

Auslandau hit the nail squarely on the head when he stated that the vast majority of those who dream of an XR8 only want to buy a second hand one.

And if the big picture all you have to do is buy a GS, remove the stripes and badges, remove the starter button, attach $100 worth of X8 badges and as far as the real world is concerned you have an XR8 and here is the extra good bit, you will have an "XR8" that is actually capable of keeping up with an XR6T and beating a SS, something that has not ever happened before.........

[StrikeTwiceXR6]

Originally Posted by flappist

Well firstly if they changed the tune they will still have to do a lot of testing for compliance.

Secondly it is quite easy to buy a GS for $55k and they are not "selling a bunch" while the previous XR8 was dropped to $45k and STILL did not sell.
Why would anyone pay $55k for an XR8 that is slower than and identical car with a GS badge that costs exactly the same money?

Auslandau hit the nail squarely on the head when he stated that the vast majority of those who dream of an XR8 only want to buy a second hand one.

And if the big picture all you have to do is buy a GS, remove the stripes and badges, remove the starter button, attach $100 worth of X8 badges and as far as the real world is concerned you have an XR8 and here is the extra good bit, you will have an "XR8" that is actually capable of keeping up with an XR6T and beating a SS, something that has not ever happened before.........

Spot on! If you guys love the brand so much and want to save the Falcon, here's a tip, BUY A BRAND NEW ONE!

[Rodge]

A GS in all but name is effectivly an XR8, (no offence intended to GS owners), complete with Ford's XR8 brakes (which you can make you own mind up on whether they work acceptably or not), and you can buy them as a demo for around $50K so what's the problem ?

As for the G8E, most of the couple of dozen or so people in the whole of Australia and New Zealand who would have bought one, have probably already snapped up a bargain SC GT-E demo or are about too.

[Resurrection]

They won't do a N/A version of the current V8. Why would you build a SLOWER version of the current V8 models? The volumes will be too low to make the idea viable. And if they did, it will just take sales away from the six cylinder turbo models. No way, Jose.

[Pepscobra]

I don't totally agree... With Falcon sales numbers already low, an extra model or two to fill a gap and entice an extra few buyers a month can't be bad.

I don't know why people are saying the XR8 never sold? I still see more on the road than the equivalent FPV models. And if it is true, maybe because it's because Ford never gave it a decent donk. With the S/C motor and correct product placement, it could be a great model. As has been said before, not everyone wants an FPV. Holden V8 sales are proof of this. there are still people who want a V8 in the standard range.

But without Ford reintroducing the XR8, we'll just never know.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by Pepscobra

With the S/C motor and correct product placement, it could be a great model. As has been said before, not everyone wants an FPV. Holden V8 sales are proof of this. there are still people who want a V8 in the standard range.

But without Ford reintroducing the XR8, we'll just never know.

And it is a great model ...... ~! Only they called it the GS instead?

Still remember the days when the E series XR6 was actually quicker and more nimble that the XR8! That caused issues ..... and also has since the Turbo was introduced before Coyote/Miami/Boss/335

So along came the time when everyone was screaming for a GM & turbo walloping V8 ...... they got one! Now some want their slow V8 back ....... confusing hey!

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by Pepscobra

I don't totally agree... With Falcon sales numbers already low, an extra model or two to fill a gap and entice an extra few buyers a month can't be bad.

I don't know why people are saying the XR8 never sold? I still see more on the road than the equivalent FPV models. And if it is true, maybe because it's because Ford never gave it a decent donk. With the S/C motor and correct product placement, it could be a great model. As has been said before, not everyone wants an FPV. Holden V8 sales are proof of this. there are still people who want a V8 in the standard range.

But without Ford reintroducing the XR8, we'll just never know.

2 issues I see are:

1: where can they introduce a new model without spending millions of dollars on development so as to have a hope of making a positive impact on profit

And

2: what models can they introduce that wont simply canabilise current models?

So moreover, how many people wanting a G8E/XR8NA, are buying something like an SS or V8 Calais instead of an XR6T, GS, GTE etc?

[Nikked]

I'd say the XR8 will be part of the FU line-up...


Turn up the wick on the FPV models...


300kw base XR8

335kw GS

351kw GT

[UberKnee]

If people loved them so much, they should have bought more of them when they were available. As it stands they sold bugger all due to the XR6T's cult hero status.

[Adamz Ghia]

The BA and BF XR8 sold poorly due to negative perception, anyone know how the AU III XR8 sold once it had the bigger motor in it...? That car arrived to rave reviews, may not have been the fastest, but it drove the best and was fast enough. Maybe if they call the GS an XR8 in FH and boost the other models a bit higher it might sell better. Especially if Ford build excitement around its launch. Oh, and put a few more features in it so its not a bare bones model. I know some hate it when people say this but more people than not want seat warmers (for example) these days just to say they have tem...

[Windsor220]

Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia

The BA and BF XR8 sold poorly due to negative perception, anyone know how the AU III XR8 sold once it had the bigger motor in it...? That car arrived to rave reviews, may not have been the fastest, but it drove the best and was fast enough. Maybe if they call the GS an XR8 in FH and boost the other models a bit higher it might sell better. Especially if Ford build excitement around its launch. Oh, and put a few more features in it so its not a bare bones model. I know some hate it when people say this but more people than not want seat warmers (for example) these days just to say they have tem...

That was the first time the XR8 was quicker than the XR6. When BA came around it was back to the XR6. I can't see a FG/FU XR8 being that quick with the NA 5.0 in it so nothing would change.

For a car that sells about 1000 a month, there is a hell of a lot of model and engine options already. Adding another is too much.

[tweeked]

I think it is funny peple are saying to detune the Miami 315 even further.

It is about the most detuned motor on the market. What are they meant to do, run the charger backwards?

[FalconXV]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

I think its more a case of .... "How Ford can build the XR8 and G8E so I can buy one second hand"

....... not specifically directed at OP. And has been said. Best possible V8 is available right now at your local FPV dealer so why cheapen the product with something that 6T drivers and others can chuckle at?

There are plenty of legitimate customers who opt for a Commodore SS.
XR8 is still an equally recognisable brand to FPV, why not put the 315 in a sub $50K XR8? And differentiate the GS by fitting the 275's when the facelift comes?

[Sprint]

How about instead of making 2 tonne lounge machines with every gimic possible.,they make a lighter,smaller version(aka mustang size) and do a A9X(torana) on holdens aszes.

Just like the 80s when fuel was a worry.

The time of building super charged version falcons for only the rich should be over, they need a 40k sports v8.

who the ******* has 70k to spend on a car?

[mik]

Originally Posted by Sprint

How about instead of making 2 tonne lounge machines with every gimic possible.,they make a lighter,smaller version(aka mustang size) and do a A9X(torana) on holdens aszes.

Just like the 80s when fuel was a worry.

The time of building super charged version falcons for only the rich should be over, they need a 40k sports v8.

who the ******* has 70k to spend on a car?

I doubt it would happen, i`m sure ford oz has all their funds tied up in adding gear to existing models and doing updates without adding another model and more cost, which would then see goodies spread thinner across the range.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by Sprint

How about instead of making 2 tonne lounge machines with every gimic possible.,they make a lighter,smaller version(aka mustang size) and do a A9X(torana) on holdens aszes.

Just like the 80s when fuel was a worry.

The time of building super charged version falcons for only the rich should be over, they need a 40k sports v8.

who the ******* has 70k to spend on a car?

Yep agree ........ for years I have been saying that an Aston Martin DB9 should be around 50k so everyone could buy one except for the rich.

Unfortunately which ever way you look at it, the above wont happen. Something is worth what ever it takes to produce. I am sure that if a case for a basic spec V8 was doable, it would be done. After all, that's why they produce cars. Not because for the fun of it nor for charity nor for the 3 that might buy one but for profit and if there was profit in a V12 HO GT Supercharged 600kg Falcon then I can absolutely promise you ...... it would be done!

Also ....... just 1 other small issue ...... as seen on these and every single page of the Forums ..... Having the fastest, quickest, whatever car is now not the requirement. It just needs a 12 speaker stereo, chiller cup holders, heated seats and a manicure option with matching lockable handbag tray. Also a lightweight car as specified above would most likely cost more than the up spec model ..... and then those who wanted it in the first place wouldnt buy it because it would be too expensive .... and who would want to pay more with less stuff in it ...... and around in circles we go

[StrikeTwiceXR6]

Originally Posted by tweeked

I think it is funny peple are saying to detune the Miami 315 even further.

It is about the most detuned motor on the market. What are they meant to do, run the charger backwards?

I think they already run the supercharger backwards on the GS . The boost needle on my GS never moved from brand new and up to 5000km, but since 5000km and thanks to some Autotech magic the boost needle now moves nicely.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by FalconXV

There are plenty of legitimate customers who opt for a Commodore SS.
XR8 is still an equally recognisable brand to FPV, why not put the 315 in a sub $50K XR8? And differentiate the GS by fitting the 275's when the facelift comes?

It is always the same argument from the same people with the same answer.

The reason why SS sells is because if you are a Holden enthusiast there is no other choice.

It is interesting to note that in one model, VL, Holden offered a N/A V8 and a turbo I6 that was quicker and cheaper than the V8.
How did that work out for V8 sales in that model?

Another observation. Very few if any of those who are screaming for a new XR8 are driving a recent second hand XR8 or even a SS and of those who are driving an XR8 maybe one or two bought it new.

I have a plan to sort this question once and for all though.

All of the XR8 enthusiasts place $10,000 in a communal interest bearing account to go toward the purchase of a new FG2 XR8 which will just be a GS with XR8 badges but it is all about bling.
They could even make it a special shiny silver "hero colour" to celebrate the 20 year performance heritage of XR8.
Now when you have 100 deposits of $10,000 which is $1,000,000, Ford are approached with a business case for this special model.

If they say no then you get your money back.
If they say yes you have 30 days to come up with the rest or you lose your $10k and it goes to Ford to cover the cost of converting the XR8 back to a GS.
If you can't get 100 buyers in less than 60 days then you get your money back.
All interest earned will go to covering the costs of setting up the trust and negotiations with Ford.

So there it is.

I do see two problems though:

1) Walking the walk rather than just talking the talk requires actual personal financial commitment for a new car NOW not a second has one in 3 years on which someone else has taken the initial financial hit.

2) If 100 buyers can't be found then Ford's analysis of the potential XR8 market was correct which I suspect will have a similar effect to telling a class full of kindergarten kids that the Easter Bunny is not real.

Of course both my own and Fords view of the XR8 market could be completely wrong and if so then I will be quite happy to admit it and proud to have helped sell more Falcons.

So who will make the first deposit?

[FGII-XR6]

That shut them up

Originally Posted by flappist

It is always the same argument from the same people with the same answer.

The reason why SS sells is because if you are a Holden enthusiast there is no other choice.

It is interesting to note that in one model, VL, Holden offered a N/A V8 and a turbo I6 that was quicker and cheaper than the V8.
How did that work out for V8 sales in that model?

Another observation. Very few if any of those who are screaming for a new XR8 are driving a recent second hand XR8 or even a SS and of those who are driving an XR8 maybe one or two bought it new.

I have a plan to sort this question once and for all though.

All of the XR8 enthusiasts place $10,000 in a communal interest bearing account to go toward the purchase of a new FG2 XR8 which will just be a GS with XR8 badges but it is all about bling.
They could even make it a special shiny silver "hero colour" to celebrate the 20 year performance heritage of XR8.
Now when you have 100 deposits of $10,000 which is $1,000,000, Ford are approached with a business case for this special model.

If they say no then you get your money back.
If they say yes you have 30 days to come up with the rest or you lose your $10k and it goes to Ford to cover the cost of converting the XR8 back to a GS.
If you can't get 100 buyers in less than 60 days then you get your money back.
All interest earned will go to covering the costs of setting up the trust and negotiations with Ford.

So there it is.

I do see two problems though:

1) Walking the walk rather than just talking the talk requires actual personal financial commitment for a new car NOW not a second has one in 3 years on which someone else has taken the initial financial hit.

2) If 100 buyers can't be found then Ford's analysis of the potential XR8 market was correct which I suspect will have a similar effect to telling a class full of kindergarten kids that the Easter Bunny is not real.

Of course both my own and Fords view of the XR8 market could be completely wrong and if so then I will be quite happy to admit it and proud to have helped sell more Falcons.

So who will make the first deposit?

[stevefreestyle]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

As flappiest said it is not a simple job even if there is a NA version of the engine in the US they would have to go through the ADR process here and we aren't talking a couple of grand to a certifying engineer like we would pay to drop a non original engine in.
Ford would have to be able to justify the expenditure with adequate sales and on past history that is not likely.
as it stands Ford have a good range of performance cars available starting from the affordable XR6 turbo right through to the GT Rspec. how many options do you want in what after all is a small limited market ( unlike the US where they have a population of 330M to sell to) .
lets face it the XR8 died due to lack of support so it is unlikely to reappear

The 420 Hp 5.0 Coyote is EXACTLY the same physical engine Block & Heads as the FPV 5.0 S/C GT - Millions to certify ????? - and so are flying purple pigs !!!!!

The main impediment is the Quad Cam Phasing Wiring loom - which they should be able to adapt from the mustang wiring harness which Retails for around US$1200

Meanwhile GMH are Laughing all the way to the proverbial bank - with an monopoly on the $50K V8 sports market segment. Although they (in stark contrast to Ford) are astute in identifing the market niche and marketing the SS

[flappist]

Originally Posted by stevefreestyle

The 420 Hp 5.0 Coyote is EXACTLY the same physical engine Block & Heads as the FPV GT - Millions to certify ????? - and so are flying purple pigs !!!!!

Meanwhile GMH are Laughing all the way to the proverbial bank - with an monopoly on the $50K V8 sports market segment. Although they (in stark contrast to Ford) are astute in identifing the market niche and marketing the SS

As are the T6, I6, ecoLPi 6 and old dual fuel 6 yet each had to be separately certified. Even the XR6T and F6 engines which are both T6 required separate testing.

[ratter]

Originally Posted by stevefreestyle

The 420 Hp 5.0 Coyote is EXACTLY the same physical engine Block & Heads as the FPV GT - Millions to certify ????? - and so are flying purple pigs !!!!!

Meanwhile GMH are Laughing all the way to the proverbial bank - with an monopoly on the $50K V8 sports market segment. Although they (in stark contrast to Ford) are astute in identifing the market niche and marketing the SS

So do you know exactly what goes into certifying a vehicle or you're just guessing?

Honest question because we have all sorts of people from different backgrounds and some that like to think they know what is involved.

[stevefreestyle]

Originally Posted by ratter

So do you know exactly what goes into certifying a vehicle or you're just guessing?

Honest question because we have all sorts of people from different backgrounds and some that like to think they know what is involved.

Not qualified in this specific area, however I have investigated this issue previously. The 5.0 Coyote is the donor engine for the current certified FPV 5.0 s/c engine, and as a N/A is less powerful, therefore generates less torsional stresses in the chasis etc. Although it should always be noted when dealing with Gov' Beaucrats you can never rely on reason and logic.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by stevefreestyle

The 420 Hp 5.0 Coyote is EXACTLY the same physical engine Block & Heads as the FPV GT - Millions to certify ????? - and so are flying purple pigs !!!!!

Meanwhile GMH are Laughing all the way to the proverbial bank - with an monopoly on the $50K V8 sports market segment. Although they (in stark contrast to Ford) are astute in identifing the market niche and marketing the SS

Wouldn't you think though that Ford have done their home work and said that Gm can have that very small and niche section of the market while they concentrate on other areas?

And yes ..... its does cost a crap load to change an engine. The EcoBoost was available, ready to slot into place but still took a couple of years planning and a shed full of dollars. The difference being ..... Head office wanted Ford to do the ground work on putting an EcoBoost into a rear wheel drive for evaluation purposes .... and for the good of the global company ..... while they would be extremely hard pressed to get them to spend the money on a N/A V8.

They cant turn up at Detroit and have a meeting based on:

Detroit: "Why do you want a NA V8 when 50 million was just spent on a Supercharged V8?"

Broadmeadows: "Because we want a slower V8 and ..... um ...... because GM have one?"

Detroit: "But you have the I6T .... that is quicker, uses less petrol ...... are you serious ?"

Broadmeadows: "Yes but it would be good to have a V8 that is slower than the I6T ...... and yes we are serious!"

Detroit: "Why ......?"

Broadmeadows: "Cos they sound good ...... "

Detroit: "How many would you sell ..... ?"

Broadmeadows: "As many as we did with the B series and the start of the F series .... and GM have a slow V8 option "

Detroit: "But they don't have a 6 Turbo?"

*Sound of crickets .........

Detroit: "Can I have some of those red pills you are on?"

[Nikked]

Given that its "so easy", why haven't Ford done it yet...


For you see, the Miami is certified for Australia, the N/A coyote would still need re-evaluation for Australia, this includes emmisions, and crash test (i would presume) as the inlet manifold would be different...

Would cost a couple of million...and people would still whinge about it if we got it...

[mik]

Amazing how when ford had the NA V8 engine, it was`nt fast enough, it did`nt have enough down low, it was too heavy, da,da,dadadadadada, so ford makes a considerable effort and spends millions putting in an alloy super charged v8 that is the ducks guts........... and you still get dudes having a whine because it`s not cheap enough or has the wrong badge for them .

[FGII-XR6]

Obviously I am mistaken after all an engineer experienced in this field must know better ( I assume with such a comment your are an engineer experienced in new vehicle certification )
I was of the understanding that if they so much as change a cam or the ECU parameters they need to get it recertified that's why the XR6 no longer has different engine specs compared to the rest of the 6 cylinder cars but as I said I will bow to your experience and qualifications as an engineer

Originally Posted by stevefreestyle

The 420 Hp 5.0 Coyote is EXACTLY the same physical engine Block & Heads as the FPV 5.0 S/C GT - Millions to certify ????? - and so are flying purple pigs !!!!!

The main impediment is the Quad Cam Phasing Wiring loom - which they should be able to adapt from the mustang wiring harness which Retails for around US$1200

Meanwhile GMH are Laughing all the way to the proverbial bank - with an monopoly on the $50K V8 sports market segment. Although they (in stark contrast to Ford) are astute in identifing the market niche and marketing the SS

[jpd80]

Even changing wheels from 17" to 18" requires a recalibration as it affects the DSC and other functions in the car,
that's why EcoLPI only came with one wheel option, doing multiple options is what adds up costs quickly.

You can bet that Ford has worked out that adding a G8E would probably create more internal competition with G6ET than increasing sales.

We have a wonderful local turbo I-6 engine, why can't people be happy that we have XR6T and G6ET available here and now.