Toyota workers warned

[Yellow_Festiva]

I'm wondering,.... if Toyota workers accept the new conditions (and I would if I were in their shoes) would this set a precedent for other large employers to follow?

When things were great so were workers conditions, it is only to be expected that the belt automatically tightens when things slow down.

Getting paid to donate blood? What a joke. Scrap that perk altogether IMO.

[neptune blue]

Toyota workers and the unions will dig their heels in cos they think Toyota is bluffing
If TMC close shop because their workers are too stupid to understand what's happening in the real world, I say they deserve what's coming to them
It's a shame that they are going to take so many others with them

[cheap]

Sick Leave ??? I'm self employed, if I don't work I don't get paid.

Is it true that every single auto-worker has to be a union member? If so why?

[DJR MAN]

Why is it the workers fault?
Why is it the unions fault?

Its the employers sign off on what they agree to pay/benefits to employees in EBA's.
Managers are educated people with degrees these days and therefore accountable, so why would they sign off on something that will be detrimental to them and the company?

What ? The working class in Australia have rights? Imagine that...

Share the pain managers, stand up and be accountable - you can't off load everything to someone else all the time.

[smokinfalcon]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

I'M a worker my friend , i started working for a U.S pharma company as an apprentice the day after i left school. it was a gold watch job and a gold watch trade , ( fitting machining) . i saved money and also worked at a pub at night .
back then i could buy a house for about 70k tradesman were earning about 30k inc OT .
My prospects were good , there was manufacturing and production expertise in this country .
FAST FORWARD 28 YRS . i am now in essential services , my production prospects are pretty well gone , i havent gotten wealthy out of working . i coul'dve if i'd invested ( which is capitalism) < money for no labour .
over the years i seen peoples employment prospects grow by joining industries that produce nothing , ie law , accountancy, economic management, banking and investing . those of us manufacturers either changed jobs accordingly , or transferred to essential service industries . the essential service industries dont make people wealthy but pay a living . wealth comes from the capitalist type jobs which produce nothing , and save or cost cut .
my point being if the whole country aims to be an accountant , or lawyer or doctor , and wants to attain a good standard of living , who is going to pay them for thier services .
it's said even today that the gap between the rich and the poor is growing .
what we are seeing in this country is our work given to other countries . the reasoning is the workers want ( not need ) too much , and are ripping the company off, therefore the company is (forced)forced to seek cheaper labour to compete with cheaper countries, meanwhile nothing is coming down in price. ( shareholders and stake holders make money out of this ( < free money and quickly)
my children are now faced with fewer job prospects out there , there are many uni qualified professionals unemployed with no work , because a lawyer simply cant produce a car or house or food for us, therefore poverty is now moving to professionals also,as those trying to avoid it become competition ( more lawyers than required). leaving only attained wealth with only chances to increase or maintain .
blaming workers cause houses went from 70k to 700k , and electricity rises 6% per year , and taxes and private user pays systems end health and education costs etc , and seeking ( free money ) < thats what creates wealth now , free money for no labor . is a failing formula.
i have no fix . sorry . start your own business maybe and try not to pay people enough to make a living and i might have a slim chance of being able to obtain a decent living .
my only answer would be to stop free trade . as unionists and communists tried to do all along but failed . then we can produce our own and buy our own at the rate required , that would mean i buy a falcon or holden at 35k and not a lancer at 19k . but we let our corperate money spinners allow cheaper people to put us out of business and yet increase living costs here .
not being a financial analyst with a degree . houses <our mainstay costs and essential services have not come down , they are the things we NEED TO BUY .THEY ARE THE THINGS THE USER DOES NOT MAKE MONEY ON , ONLY THE OWNERS MAKE MONEY ON THESE ESSENTIAL SERVICES our sytem is flawed . whinging about it without doing something about it wont change that . moveing companies off shore definately wont change that unless houses and capitilist pricnciples fold into bankruptcy. then my children might be able to play on a level playing field with cheap labour . they can work for 10 bucks hr , and buy houses for 70k . to do this anyone with any money now, mainly the richest ones will have to lose it all, as the poorer people don't have enough left to lose . WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT THE BAD WATER IS FLOWING UP HILL . THE ONLY FIX NOW IS THE TOP TO LOSE IT ALL , THE POOR HAVE nothing to trade off, the middle class is starting to lose where most of the wealth is . the top will have to lose all as well

i have edited this to try and make more sense ( PLEASE RE READ )

Man, your so right in everything you say, me thinks you should go into politics.

To take some of your quotes (therefore the company is (forced)forced to seek cheaper labour to compete with cheaper countries, meanwhile nothing is coming down in price.) How true is this, for example, Sidchrome went over seas yet their spanners never got any cheaper, but the quality did, although they tried to tell us they were still as good, Same with Clipsal, all your power points and light switches and stuff are now from over seas yet still cost the same. There are many more items out there in the same boat.

And another quote. (therefore poverty is now moving to professionals also)
Darn right there. My niece finished her law degree at the end of 2012 and still hasnt been able to get a job in her field. The usual excuses, "we want someone with experience" well how the hell do you get experience if you wont give them a chance!

Btw, has anyone noticed Nabisco biscuits are made in China, yes, including Oreos. Colgate toothpaste, made in Thailand. Makes me sick.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by cheap

Sick Leave ??? I'm self employed, if I don't work I don't get paid.

That is your problem! don't be a sook because some one else has something you don't, any how you should make enough money to cover your own sickies.

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by Rapid_Axe

I don't think its that much of a burden honestly, if you are sick prove it.

For me its one day off without, two or more require cert, Friday and/or Monday also require cert.

So when you want an appointment with the doctor you have to contend with heaps of people trying to get a certificate, because they have a stomach bug or migraine and can't just take one day off.

I think some common sense a certificate for just one day is absurd. For one thing our GP's don't need their waiting rooms filled with people who normally would just take the day off in bed and taking up the time of the GP better spent with other patients who have reason to be there beyond their employer doesn't trust them.

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by GREGL

In your many replies to the closures of the various manufacturing identities you have/are negative towards the capitalist way which is fair enough , it's your opinion . On the other hand you haven't put forward an alternative solution / theory that may solve Australia's current problems .
Unless of course your advocating something along the lines of a communist economy . After all what other alternatives are there ? Come on put it out there , what is your alternative to make this country strong again ?

Top executive earns a max of 12 times the lowest paid employee. This excludes owner/operators of companies. If the executives want a payrise and bonus, everyone gets one. They all work for the same company and they are all employees. As for threats of leaving. Well you weren't there for the right reasons if it was only the pay and there are plenty of other Australians who will step up and take the opportunity they exit from. Far from a disaster I think they will create opportunities for people with true passion for companies and a desire to do well. It will destroy the boys club that pervades the current management structure.

All raw materials must be processed at least one level, before it can be exported.

All free trade agreements are null and void if the other country impose any direct or indirect tax that is designed to go against the spirit of the free trade agreement.

All foreign national businesses that setup in Australia and produce in Australia have their corporate tax reduced by a third compared to those who import only.

Having opportunities for all Australians to work in many sectors of trade and business is important for our long term viability and for the good health and welfare of all Australians. Government policy must always strive for a balanced economy where Australians are involved in all areas of research, manufacturing, science, medicine, agriculture, engineering, mining and others. The current imbalance in our economy must be seen as unacceptable.

Australian startups are given access to larger cash loans and investments from Government with less red tape.

Australian government agencies must always, always purchase Australian made goods wherever there is one available. Their purchases to be subject to Federal government oversight and fines issued if it is decided they breached these conditions.

Our transport and utilities are to stay in Australian government ownership for the good of all Australians. Those sold must be reacquired at the same market value they were sold.

Government policy is about our future, our kids future and our grand kids future. Not about what happens before the election. When things are deemed to be in the national interest Labor and the Coalition must have terms of reference to what they WILL NOT change should they come to power. This is particularly important as it comes to how we do international trade and relations.

The good of the many must outweigh the greed of the few. All government policy should reflect this.

Nation building is not an antiquated concept and each government must declare to the public what projects it will/is undertaking for us and future generations of Australians.

Australia is not "Open for business" as our current PM likes to waffle, but should be "Open for business partnerships". Companies that are willing to take a long term view of their engagement in Australia, will be favoured accordingly both financially and in opportunity for government contracts and co-investment.

No more tax cuts until it can be proved the public good is being well taken care of and paid for. In other words no buying votes which our most vulnerable members of society pay for with less services and support.

Australians come first.

[buggerlugs]

Originally Posted by trublu

That is your problem! don't be a sook because some one else has something you don't, any how you should make enough money to cover your own sickies.

That's right, All of us who are self employed make an absolute fortune.......... That famous quote " You work for yourself, you must be loaded !! " Back on topic...........

[cheap]

Originally Posted by trublu

That is your problem! don't be a sook because some one else has something you don't, any how you should make enough money to cover your own sickies.

Being a sook - that's harsh and unnecessary.

You will find there are many people self employed or on contracts who roll their eye's at the benefits that union people have.

Having worked many years within government, I'm under no fantasy about the true worth of union labour and their trigger happy approach to down tools and go running to the union every time some non-union person outperforms them at work.

As for this being my problem, you're right (but not in the way you think). I pay for my own holidays, sickies, insurances, have a mortgage, pay school fee's and for my good work I get taxed to death paying for programs to help swarms of socially disadvantaged people, academics and useless public servants (to name a few). At the end of the day there isn't much money left. So if Toyota closes, there will be more people looking for a handout from my already depleted pay packet.

Finally for some reason you seem to think being self employed is a gold plated lifestyle, this is the class warfare propaganda fed by the unions to their minions. Let me take a wild stab in the dark, you're part of a union?

[Syndrome]

Toyota are goneski

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by cheap

Sick Leave ??? I'm self employed, if I don't work I don't get paid.

Is it true that every single auto-worker has to be a union member? If so why?

Then don't be self employed, you can't have it both ways.

You don't HAVE to be a union member, but I reckon if you become a member it will make your life much much easier otherwise you'll be bullied constantly and people will make your life hard.

Same thing with the CFMEU on construction sites, join up or you WILL cop **** 24/7.

Don't be under the illusion you were with Holden and their EBA agreement when they agreed to cut conditions, but the company still announced closure anyway, the same thing will happen.

Not only that but I reckon that Tony Abbot is probably talking to the heads of Toyota to get them to try to get rid of the current EBA through court, because if they do, it will set a precedent and that my friends is dangerous. They got knocked back once in court but they are trying to appeal it.

[xr8lover]

We all took a 5% pay cut to supposedly save our car supplier company (Flexdrive Industries) and where did that get us ?, NOW REDUNDANT !

[mr smith]

Originally Posted by cheap

Being a sook - that's harsh and unnecessary.

You will find there are many people self employed or on contracts who roll their eye's at the benefits that union people have.

Having worked many years within government, I'm under no fantasy about the true worth of union labour and their trigger happy approach to down tools and go running to the union every time some non-union person outperforms them at work.

As for this being my problem, you're right (but not in the way you think). I pay for my own holidays, sickies, insurances, have a mortgage, pay school fee's and for my good work I get taxed to death paying for programs to help swarms of socially disadvantaged people, academics and useless public servants (to name a few). At the end of the day there isn't much money left. So if Toyota closes, there will be more people looking for a handout from my already depleted pay packet.

Finally for some reason you seem to think being self employed is a gold plated lifestyle, this is the class warfare propaganda fed by the unions to their minions. Let me take a wild stab in the dark, you're part of a union?

Taxed to death?
All the people I know with their own business have the missus on the books, two new lease cars, get ABN rebates, tax breaks on assets and cook the books to get child payments.
You need a new accountant.

I do agree that a lot of the union fights have been run and won, and the right to a safe work place should be universal but some items, esp dismissal laws need to be backed off. On union sites you basically cannot get the sack these days and that hurts productivity.

[kevino]

Originally Posted by cheap

Being a sook - that's harsh and unnecessary.

You will find there are many people self employed or on contracts who roll their eye's at the benefits that union people have.

Having worked many years within government, I'm under no fantasy about the true worth of union labour and their trigger happy approach to down tools and go running to the union every time some non-union person outperforms them at work.

As for this being my problem, you're right (but not in the way you think). I pay for my own holidays, sickies, insurances, have a mortgage, pay school fee's and for my good work I get taxed to death paying for programs to help swarms of socially disadvantaged people, academics and useless public servants (to name a few). At the end of the day there isn't much money left. So if Toyota closes, there will be more people looking for a handout from my already depleted pay packet.

Finally for some reason you seem to think being self employed is a gold plated lifestyle, this is the class warfare propaganda fed by the unions to their minions. Let me take a wild stab in the dark, you're part of a union?

Generalisations.
My union does not indulge in class warfare.
We never stop work or go on strilke-we reach a deal with employer -if we cant make common ground-it goes to the industrial adjudicator.. and the decison is accepted.
We all make choices about what we do in our life -each to its own.
For each union eba there has been a group of managers who jointly negoiated a deal. I used to be on the management team a few years back so understand both sides.
To bargain my income and conditions I would rather be part of a group of 40,000 lets say a union than be an independent contractor with the power of 1-one.
But hey thats my choice, I dont want to invest my limited capital in a buisness venture as i got burned many years ago by Pyramid Building Societ and an ex wife. But hey thats just my choice.

[cheap]

Originally Posted by mr smith

Taxed to death?
All the people I know with their own business have the missus on the books, two new lease cars, get ABN rebates, tax breaks on assets and cook the books to get child payments.
You need a new accountant.

I do agree that a lot of the union fights have been run and won, and the right to a safe work place should be universal but some items, esp dismissal laws need to be backed off. On union sites you basically cannot get the sack these days and that hurts productivity.

You make it sound so easy, cook the books and money just appears courtesy of a "tax break". That sounds a lot like fraud. I'll pass and leave those tactics to union role models such as Williamson, Thompson and "all the people you know".

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by cheap

You make it sound so easy, cook the books and money just appears courtesy of a "tax break". That sounds a lot like fraud. I'll pass and leave those tactics to union role models such as Williamson, Thompson and "all the people you know".

If being an employee and a union member is so fantastic that the world is your oyster why don't you close down your business and work for Toyota, Ford or Holden on the line and live the life of luxury that the news papers say?

I work in manufacturing as well and we're going down the gurgler, there has been no pay rises, everyones on individual contracts, theres no union or EBA. Going to blame the unions for that when we go under? All it took was a very bad choice by the management team even though we mentioned multiple times not to do it, went ahead with it anyway and it got us so far in the **** that we've lost 20 vehicles to a new competitor.

If the top isn't right the rest of the company wont be either.

[kevino]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

If being an employee and a union member is so fantastic that the world is your oyster why don't you close down your business and work for Toyota, Ford or Holden on the line and live the life of luxury that the news papers say?

I work in manufacturing as well and we're going down the gurgler, there has been no pay rises, everyones on individual contracts, theres no union or EBA. Going to blame the unions for that when we go under? All it took was a very bad choice by the management team even though we mentioned multiple times not to do it, went ahead with it anyway and it got us so far in the **** that we've lost 20 vehicles to a new competitor.

If the top isn't right the rest of the company wont be either.

Yes damo -the elephant in the room of lost productivity and reduced profits is poor managers who cannot do their job well.
Where I work suggestions around iniative, innovation and increased productivity or even a suggestion box are met with disinterest...despite repeated requests.

Often the BEST ideas come from the floor.

Managers need to see their workers as an asset and engage with them to improve their business. No worker wants to work for a failing business.

[MercurySilver]

i must say they seem to have it pretty good
double time and a half on a sunday??????

whats wrong with the good old fashioned
first two hrs is time and a galf rest is double time for sat
and double for sunday

getting paid to give blood?
seriously....either do it on your day off or dont do it ffs

i consider myself lucky getting 2.5% pay rise and getting to keep my income protection
i can lieu my overtime if i wish and i can cash out my rdo hrs at time and a half

that'll do me

[Franco Cozzo]

We don't even get double time, only time and a half and they won't do time off in lieu either so I don't do any overtime, don't really need the $$$ would rather the TOIL.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by buggerlugs

That's right, All of us who are self employed make an absolute fortune.......... That famous quote " You work for yourself, you must be loaded !! " Back on topic...........

if you cant pay your bills or take a holiday , or be sick , then up your rates . if your self employed you should be on more than an employee in the same field otherwise what are you doing to yourself and trying to promote to everyone . HOW TO BE A LOSER FOR A LIVING ?

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by cheap

Being a sook - that's harsh and unnecessary.

You will find there are many people self employed or on contracts who roll their eye's at the benefits that union people have.

Having worked many years within government, I'm under no fantasy about the true worth of union labour and their trigger happy approach to down tools and go running to the union every time some non-union person outperforms them at work.

As for this being my problem, you're right (but not in the way you think). I pay for my own holidays, sickies, insurances, have a mortgage, pay school fee's and for my good work I get taxed to death paying for programs to help swarms of socially disadvantaged people, academics and useless public servants (to name a few). At the end of the day there isn't much money left. So if Toyota closes, there will be more people looking for a handout from my already depleted pay packet.

Finally for some reason you seem to think being self employed is a gold plated lifestyle, this is the class warfare propaganda fed by the unions to their minions. Let me take a wild stab in the dark, you're part of a union?

See the problem is you assume things too.

Remember this all workers regardless if self employed or employees pay mortgages, school fees taxes etc, so what is so special about you?

Yes I'm a union member & proud of it but what right do you have to judge me as I'm no different to you trying to make a decent living for myself & family.

[aussiblue]

The ball is in their court.

No; as with Ford and Holden the ball is in the court of the OZ car buyer; support your local industry or say goodbye to it. Some marginal savings in cost and price will make no difference if we buy a American made Mustang or Thai Ford instead.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

So when you want an appointment with the doctor you have to contend with heaps of people trying to get a certificate, because they have a stomach bug or migraine and can't just take one day off.

.

You can call a doctor to make a house call, so no waiting rooms.

Bulk bill ,often with no gap payment.

My son is a locum doctor and does it some evenings.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by cheap

Being a sook - that's harsh and unnecessary.

You will find there are many people self employed or on contracts who roll their eye's at the benefits that union people have.

Having worked many years within government, I'm under no fantasy about the true worth of union labour and their trigger happy approach to down tools and go running to the union every time some non-union person outperforms them at work.

As for this being my problem, you're right (but not in the way you think). I pay for my own holidays, sickies, insurances, have a mortgage, pay school fee's and for my good work I get taxed to death paying for programs to help swarms of socially disadvantaged people, academics and useless public servants (to name a few). At the end of the day there isn't much money left. So if Toyota closes, there will be more people looking for a handout from my already depleted pay packet.

Finally for some reason you seem to think being self employed is a gold plated lifestyle, this is the class warfare propaganda fed by the unions to their minions. Let me take a wild stab in the dark, you're part of a union?

GREAT POST , BUT ONE SIDED . i was also self employed doing a 2nd job , whilst also being a full time employee . it's easier to be in a union working for someone . however being self employed offered more success and risk . i had to keep a level head being self employed , and i had to stand one out with union principles as unions stand and work for safety , when i was self employed i had to put my own job on the line and risk peril . what i'm saying is running a business and being self insured , rather than pretend i could do things better than the work force there , i literally went one step further towardfs safety and refusal to buckle to the company at the risk of losing contracts . i once shut down a whole factory overnight because of a breakdown , that was potentially fatal if risked by the company . the union employees onsite were scared to do this , however as i was running the shift , i locked out the plant , called the ceo , told him i'm shutting down his company , and his shift supervisor is being a dill , trying to threaten me , if he overides my lock outs the police will be called as with work cover . he was fuming over the phone and came out that night to inspect . by morning he was thanking me for doing it , and saving lives . from that point forward i was respected and had full support of the ceo and company management , and they wanted me to be there non stop . using union principles as a self employed contractor .
PLEASE SPARE ME THE HOGWASH OF HOW GREAT YOU ARE AND BETTER THAN EMPLOYEES CAUSE YOU WORK FOR YOURSELF , AND BAG PEOPLE EMPLOYED .

[buggerlugs]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

if you cant pay your bills or take a holiday , or be sick , then up your rates . if your self employed you should be on more than an employee in the same field otherwise what are you doing to yourself and trying to promote to everyone . HOW TO BE A LOSER FOR A LIVING ?

Mate, I have been running a very successful business for over 22 years. But I know a lot of people who are struggling in business not thru lack of trying. It just annoys me so much that salary and wage earners seem to think that if you work for yourself your making a fortune...................

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by buggerlugs

Mate, I have been running a very successful business for over 22 years. But I know a lot of people who are struggling in business not thru lack of trying. It just annoys me so much that salary and wage earners seem to think that if you work for yourself your making a fortune...................

yeah i know . i agree with your point but offered the opposite view of what self employed people think .
i've lived both . and i think the self employed bag collective unionism and workers conditions more then the other way around .
however lots of people assume working for yourslef your rich . working for yourself is harder both mentally and physically in some cases , and less rewarding also in some cases . the rubbish about paying no tax . what a joke . buying all your own equipment and paying tax insurance , employees , overtime etc , is exhausting , not to mention the fact that people totally mess you around and companies have zero loyalty and are always looking for ways to find cheaper people to replace you with . .
it can offer success reward and wealth , but can also offer failure , loss and mental crisis . hats off to any self employed for many reasons . however equally unionists and employees and anyone with ethical morals .
those who bag normally fall short and have no idea on both sides me thinks .

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by buggerlugs

Mate, I have been running a very successful business for over 22 years. But I know a lot of people who are struggling in business not thru lack of trying. It just annoys me so much that salary and wage earners seem to think that if you work for yourself your making a fortune...................

I quite agree with your statement, same as people who work for themselves who think all unionists are tarred with the same brush.....don't you agree.

[mik]

Originally Posted by DJR MAN

Why is it the workers fault?
Why is it the unions fault?

Its the employers sign off on what they agree to pay/benefits to employees in EBA's.
Managers are educated people with degrees these days and therefore accountable, so why would they sign off on something that will be detrimental to them and the company?

What ? The working class in Australia have rights? Imagine that...

Share the pain managers, stand up and be accountable - you can't off load everything to someone else all the time.

Empoyers and managers do not always have a choice, at the end of the day you need a work force not striking and to make production, and at the end of the week you have try and pay the bills the wages and at the end of that hope to make a buk........... something that is near on mission impossible in australia.

[Cheese3]

Toyota is gonski because the suppliers need all 3 company's in this country to be sustainable, the fuel tank company for example is going to loose 2/3 of its business when Holden and Ford shut and they wont stay open/afloat for just one of them.

An hey back off you all, I'm quite happy to keep my two and half times on sunday, thank you FoMoCo for the extra gravy!