"Holden just needs to pay normal wages and it won’t need [Govt] handouts"

[JG34JA]

Norway's sovereign wealth fund (from their oil) certainly helps. Lucky we set a big one up from the mining boom and, oh, wait...

[BA GT-HO]

Originally Posted by stazza

Just because it hasn't gone down in history doesn't mean nothing has been achieved.

I can't help but think the majority of these anti union claims have been made by yes men that have never worked in an industry where the union has offered protection for the worker and given the worker the confidence to say no and have a fair say.

I was an AMWU member for 9 years.

It's a boys club and all it is really is a legal service for bludgers to hide behind.

[stazza]

Originally Posted by jamies

I have seen unions at work first hand, When I worked in a boat yard the union said down tools and strike.. if they wont give us a payrise we wont work, I was an apprentice at the time and everyone was buzzing saying strike.. strike.. strike...
The owner of the ship yard sent out a letter the day of the strike, it basically said
''If you strike I will sack the lot of you and employ 500 staff that want to work, I don't care how long it takes to train them''.. Well the union disappeared with there tail between there legs and not another thing was said.. I realised as a teen in 1996 that unions are more trouble then what there worth

So as a teen, you knew all the politics behind the decision and formed an educated conclusion that unions are more trouble than they're worth over one strike attempt? Haha ok sure buddy.

I'd have called the bosses bluff and laughed as his business went down the shitter as he attempted to find 500 willing workers. If it was that easy everyone that goes on strike would be jobless.

Admittedly, yes, there have been countless silly decisions and demands made by unions, but also there have been countless decent rights and conditions won by unions.

[jamies]

Originally Posted by stazza

So as a teen, you knew all the politics behind the decision and formed an educated conclusion that unions are more trouble than they're worth over one strike attempt? Haha ok sure buddy.

Ha ha.. well infact my father taught me a fair bit about unions, If you pay attention you learn a bit from your elders..

I'd have called the bosses bluff and laughed as his business went down the shitter as he attempted to find 500 willing workers. If it was that easy everyone that goes on strike would be jobless.

Ha ha well, well, do some research on Incat Stazza, Bob Clifford was a hard man, Tassies economy at the time would not sustain such a large unemployment surge.. so he knew how to call the bluff. You wouldn't have called his bluff you would of **** yourself and gone back to work like everyone else...


Admittedly, yes, there have been countless silly decisions and demands made by unions, but also there have been countless decent rights and conditions won by unions.

Funny enough now Stazza, I'm a boss in a big company over seeing a group of company's.. If you're a switched on person even as a teen you can see right from wrong and the wrong and right way to do things, leaders are made by making there own decisions.. and sheep follow the flock so to speak..

[imugli]

Originally Posted by stazza

So as a teen, you knew all the politics behind the decision and formed an educated conclusion that unions are more trouble than they're worth over one strike attempt? Haha ok sure buddy.

You don't have to be old to be smart...

[gtfpv]

ok anti union people . we should lower our wages , have no penalty rates , bring on full casualisation , dont pay people if they cant work from being sick , no superranuation ( why should a boss/ company fund a persons retirement, work when we are asked , go home when we are asked , be sacked when someone in cahrge decides he doesn't want you around , for any reason at all .
and the truth is unions are to blame that we have all these rights . now lets become individuals , and some might flourish but most will compete with lower bidders ,
ok now what happens to prices in this country ? and what happens to banks , shareholders , home owners / buyers and the wealthy . What happens to children , marraiges , families , and holidays .
i should add if all these conditions are taken away , then pensions and welfare also should go .
it seems to me that a lot of stuff will dissapear with the bludger .
and dont be hippocrits and say you want to give away some and retain some .
remember unions got every single one of these conditions through people collecting together as a force ( a union )
to be fair . if you dont want any collectiveness and be an individual out there . you must not be Hippocratic and let it all go into . individual negotiation .

aside from this we should not enter coimmitments with finance companmies . to be fair , why should we do deals with them , when they dont do deals with us . no contracts . no money , no service . simple .
some say they think they can just choose what they want to give away , who are you kidding.,

oh and the GOOD BOSS who sympathises WITH PEOPLE AND PAYS THEM FOR SOME THINGS . GETS DONE OVER BY A LOW LIFE BOSS WHO DOES NO DEALS . it's called free trade , NO ONE IS THERE TO STOP HIM RIGHT BECAUSE NO ONE WILL BAND TOGETHER AS A ( UNION ) TO FIGHT FOR BETTER CONDITIONS .

[nstg8a]

The union rhetoric is getting old... How about jumping down off the respective bandwagons, and going back to the topic at hand?

Would Holden survive if wages were dropped to award levels?

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by ltd

Wow. I have stirred the ire of the resident Holden loyalist.
Obviously you can't discern between oranges and apples or in this case Holden and Ford, so trying to illustrate anything to you would be akin to hitting oneself in the groin repeatedly with a rubber mallet.
Bossxr8 works for Ford, you know, the company that has relative market independence sufficient for head office to pull the pin and announce three years out their imminent closure of manufacturing locally. What he describes, is what has happened at Ford.

Holden is a closed union shop, much like Qantas is, and I have had experience with the latter. Whilst you bang on about your beloved Holden and how they can do no wrong as you do in all of your responses on this forum, blind faith alone from ignorant fan-boys like yourself is not going to save the company.

The facts are thus, the company has a massive wage bill which is driven largely by various union demands, allowances and bonuses and the company is losing money on the order of between 200 million to 400 million dollars a year. It requires government assistance to keep going and is teetering on the edge of closure due to their inability to reign in expenses and turn a profit. These figures are readily available for anyone with a modicum of intelligence; although often ignored by the blind loyalist fan-boy which is exactly what I imagine you to be.
Much the same as Qantas maintenance, whilst the bottom line dictates that it's far too expensive to continue, industrial action will ensure the death knell of Holden as it did to Qantas maintenance. This happens when you work in a a global market place, something that your typical union delegate is either too short sighted or ignorant to believe. That's why they keep making unreasonable demands which they hold the company over a barrel to receive - it's short sighted and doomed to fail as the market catches up to what is acceptable as other countries bid for and are able to do the same job for much less. Failing that, the company needs subsidy or faces closure.

Tell me VZ, where exactly in this modern day and age has union influence over commercial ventures ended well for employees? Whilst I whole heartedly agree they did have a place in the past, where in the globally competitive market place in the last 10 years have they actually achieved a desirable outcome that has gone on to record company success?

Face it, Holden will close down and some of the revelations to come out as to how it was run and what people were paid will astound most, much the same as the claims about the ABC and their employees were paid last week.

You are so far from the truth it's not funny. I'm a union rep who works a fair bit with reps from both Holden and Toyota as we are in the same union, and we all know exactly what we all get in terms of pay and conditions. We have all seen each others EBA's. We basically all get the same, if anything it's what we use in EBA negotiations to get what the others are getting. And both Ford and Toyota are also closed union shops.

To make an assumption that Holden are different from the others is quite frankly absurd. You are completely wrong here. And if you want to argue the point i'd be happy to show you all 3 EBA's.

If you are getting this info from the mate you talked about earlier then he is feeding you total BS.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by nstg8a

The union rhetoric is getting old... How about jumping down off the respective bandwagons, and going back to the topic at hand?

Would Holden survive if wages were dropped to award levels?

someone should've said this at post 2 . when straight up the thread was bagged and somehow became the fault of people who get up every day and go to work in the hope of eating and clothing themselves , with a bed to sleep in in this country .
it would be nice if people got together and stood for ssomething for a change , instead of maggots on the sidelines slinging insults to our own way of life .


and to answer the question , i dont have to study it . i'm sure holden workers are on award levels , i dont think they are ransoming any big stake holder to give them over and above award conditions . get real . corperate lawyers on behalf of holden cannot go outside the law .
so the answer is . they already are on awards . and the company could survive if our corperate world didn't keep trading away our hops and dreams and giving work to people who are extremely poor , so they can make higher profits .

[ltd]

gtfpv I don't know where you've managed to draw all of your post from, obviously you're quite emotional on the issue.

I cited the problems at Holden which have been brought on by years of militant unionism which has festered into the company no longer having discretionary powers to turn the company around as the union throws up road blocks to any such initiative. Furthermore, the union is happy to accept government subsidy to keep it going, and are now squealing like a piggie over the fact that the government has changed and the new government refuses to continue subsidy arrangements. I mean, Holden walked out of a meeting the other day with the new government minister responsible because they didn't like what they were hearing. Talk about a childish tantrum.

From your post, I would proffer that if there was no union, you would do fine since the Fair Work act was brought in under the former ALP government in concert with the CFMEU which has legislated against all of the changes you are worried about. Companies simply cannot do what you say because they'd end up before the fair work commission before they could enact any of the changes you fear.
Face it, the world has moved on and the days of promoting the lazy, meek and stupid are over. Right or wrong, globalisation has meant that the world is competing for business, there are very few closed shops left - such as Holden. In this global economy these closed shops are eventually forced out of business. It's a sad fact of globalisation and no amount of union membership will prevent the inevitable. Furthermore, Holden is part of GM which is an American company fresh out of chapter 11 and not tolerable to perpetual losses, which is why they will be the ones to announce the cessation of GMH Australia.

[Bossxr8]

Basically every car manufacturer has a union, I know they do in Europe, South Korea and the US/Canada.

They must all be about to pack up and leave because the unions are so rampant and destroying every manufacturer on earth. Damn the unions lol.

I get sick of hearing about how unions are so rampant and militant yet Ford and the unions have a really good working relationship and we haven't had a strike in over 10 years. It's always the same people saying I had a bad experience with a union once 20 years ago and they are all bad and they raped and killed my family and left me destitute.

[ebxr8240]

Whats the import duty if a Commodore was sold in Thailand ??
OR other countries ?? We've been way too soft.. As gov over the years..

[gtfpv]

LTD . I HAVE BEEN a militant unionist for 20 of my 26 years in the work force , the previous 6 years i was working under conditions brought about by unionists , not me . i have been sacked in a pub when i was working a 2nd job , to make up my apprenticeship pay , cause the pub owner was drunk and told me i'm not working hard enough , i left crying . he was just drunk . i had to live at home longer then and watch myu dad come home and hit my mum , i studied at night also , after6 years i was 1st at tafe in my trade , with honours , and 2 post trades also . i then started in a unionist job where all the overtime went to shift workers , even day work ot , i was a day worker and wasnt entitlted to day work ot , because corrupt unionists ( so they called themselves ) wanted a buck at others expense . i have seen emaciated people arrive in australia who are employed . i have been involved in loyalty to hum,an rights . iu have seen people lose thier house because of sickness and death from losing a job . i have witnessed bullying and harrassment to just about everyone at work , i have seen my way of life being taken away from people in this country , and at the same time i have seen meggar wealth creations , money doesnt make people happy , but most of it goes to people who store it away for more .
of course i'm emotional . i have been called a bludger all my life cause i work . by other workers who i try to respect .
and i dont respect people who boast they are self made and call for lower wages , i dont respect tv presenters and radio hosts who call for lower wages . i dont respect , people living in caravans doing the same as me , and calling for lower wages . i dont respect people who say we should take a lesser way of life , cause they do overseas , i dont respect people selling the idea that we are our own worst enemy , because we have debt to pay off , i dont respect a boss / whoever he may be deciding who is the best to do a job , if he is not qualified to do so , just because he is chasing a buck . which could be at peoples lives at stake . i dont respect any of these things . when i study about what stops these things to some degree it is and always has been ( people backing each other up and fighting for fairness with each other ) unions .
forgive me for beinmg emotional but for me its more than who has the biggest ego or the most money . and i'm sick of trying to educate people here , especially when i feel like i'm failing at getting the point across

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

You are so far from the truth it's not funny. I'm a union rep who works a fair bit with reps from both Holden and Toyota as we are in the same union, and we all know exactly what we all get in terms of pay and conditions. We have all seen each others EBA's. We basically all get the same, if anything it's what we use in EBA negotiations to get what the others are getting. And both Ford and Toyota are also closed union shops.

To make an assumption that Holden are different from the others is quite frankly absurd. You are completely wrong here. And if you want to argue the point i'd be happy to show you all 3 EBA's.

If you are getting this info from the mate you talked about earlier then he is feeding you total BS.

I don't want to argue with anyone. Frankly, I know what I saw and at that time I advised my friend as he thought he was owed some entitlements such as superannuation on his overtime when he left and moved back to NSW in 1999. Would he still have the group certificate? Don't know, don't really care.

That said, as Holden negotiates with the Federal Government on continuance of assistance packages the government is rightly asking to look at the books and resultantly, some of this information has hit various circles such as that of Grace Collier, the commercial columnist of Fairfax, who has formed an opinion that Holden needs to cut it's "excessive" (note the inverted comma's quoting Grace Collier's opinion) in order to survive.
I've formed an opinion based on the findings of Grace's article, as well as evidence I saw some 14 years ago in the form of an official document from Holden supplementing Grace Colliers claims which was reasonable - given that not many industries are lowering their payrates without at least contravening several federal laws.

I think if Holden does shut shop and the forensic analysis comes to the fore as to what was the cause people like Grace Collier will be vindicated to an extent. I also believe that if Holden is to shut it will probably be without the three year announcement as done by Ford, it will be done a lot more expeditiously.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Basically every car manufacturer has a union, I know they do in Europe, South Korea and the US/Canada.

They must all be about to pack up and leave because the unions are so rampant and destroying every manufacturer on earth. Damn the unions lol.

I get sick of hearing about how unions are so rampant and militant yet Ford and the unions have a really good working relationship and we haven't had a strike in over 10 years. It's always the same people saying I had a bad experience with a union once 20 years ago and they are all bad and they raped and killed my family and left me destitute.

Sorry, wrote a response before seeing your reply.

It's really simplistic to compare unions between countries, fact is unions act upon legislature of the country at the time, and the conditions within the various countries is vastly different so you cannot compare them at all.

As for Ford and the unions, they have had a good working relationship so much so that Ford approached the AWU in the USA during the GFC and working together, they actually dropped pay rates and prevented necessity of a bailout like GM and Chrysler.
Ford Aus and the union have also had quite a reasonable history as you correctly cited in your response.

The same cannot be said for Holden and the union. Why, just last week they had another strike over redundancy amounts, so much so that Holden is suing.
http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...257C23001B28A4

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by ltd

gtfpv I don't know where you've managed to draw all of your post from, obviously you're quite emotional on the issue.

I cited the problems at Holden which have been brought on by years of militant unionism which has festered into the company no longer having discretionary powers to turn the company around as the union throws up road blocks to any such initiative. Furthermore, the union is happy to accept government subsidy to keep it going, and are now squealing like a piggie over the fact that the government has changed and the new government refuses to continue subsidy arrangements. I mean, Holden walked out of a meeting the other day with the new government minister responsible because they didn't like what they were hearing. Talk about a childish tantrum.

From your post, I would proffer that if there was no union, you would do fine since the Fair Work act was brought in under the former ALP government in concert with the CFMEU which has legislated against all of the changes you are worried about. Companies simply cannot do what you say because they'd end up before the fair work commission before they could enact any of the changes you fear.
Face it, the world has moved on and the days of promoting the lazy, meek and stupid are over. Right or wrong, globalisation has meant that the world is competing for business, there are very few closed shops left - such as Holden. In this global economy these closed shops are eventually forced out of business. It's a sad fact of globalisation and no amount of union membership will prevent the inevitable. Furthermore, Holden is part of GM which is an American company fresh out of chapter 11 and not tolerable to perpetual losses, which is why they will be the ones to announce the cessation of GMH Australia.

Holden management aren't the only ones suffering from a lack of discretionary powers. When GM decided to self implode years ago, small shareholders couldn't change management because of big institutions in the same boys club block voting.

When people have problems with their cars, they can't get the management to forget the long lunch and next years bonus and actually focus on the core business.

There is a lot more wrong with Holden and GM then just some guys on 50K a year who build cars they are told to build, when they are told to build them.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

LTD . I HAVE BEEN a militant unionist for 20 of my 26 years in the work force , the previous 6 years i was working under conditions brought about by unionists , not me . i have been sacked in a pub when i was working a 2nd job , to make up my apprenticeship pay , cause the pub owner was drunk and told me i'm not working hard enough , i left crying . he was just drunk . i had to live at home longer then and watch myu dad come home and hit my mum , i studied at night also , after6 years i was 1st at tafe in my trade , with honours , and 2 post trades also . i then started in a unionist job where all the overtime went to shift workers , even day work ot , i was a day worker and wasnt entitlted to day work ot , because corrupt unionists ( so they called themselves ) wanted a buck at others expense . i have seen emaciated people arrive in australia who are employed . i have been involved in loyalty to hum,an rights . iu have seen people lose thier house because of sickness and death from losing a job . i have witnessed bullying and harrassment to just about everyone at work , i have seen my way of life being taken away from people in this country , and at the same time i have seen meggar wealth creations , money doesnt make people happy , but most of it goes to people who store it away for more .
of course i'm emotional . i have been called a bludger all my life cause i work . by other workers who i try to respect .

If you had have come to my office in Burwood when it happened we could have taken your boss at the pub for quite a lot of damages. What he did was illegal and you should have taken him at the very least to the Industrial Relations Commission.

I'll tell you my story. I left school and studied law at UTS. I attained my LLB in 1993, and promptly went to work in the compensation field of any suburban law firm. Motor accidents, workers comp etc. Demoralising cannot say enough as to how horrible it was. Suffice to say law paid me enough to follow my real passion which was aviation, and after approximately 7 years of suburban law I quit, got into aviation as an instructor and worked my way up. (Instructors BTW, got around 13K per year at the time, 25K if you were lucky and had lots of bookings).
After more hours in the air I managed to land another job in turbo prop planes, and then after amassing time there got my first shot at an airline. Having worked in compensation law years before I was not a stranger to the unions, and part of working at an airline is you need to be in a union. So reluctantly, I joined (and have been a member since) to commence my duty as an S/O on a 338 doing long haul.
After a few years there, and having a few mates from school in maintenance, I took more than a casual interest in what the goings on of various systems and their overhauls entailed. You've heard of a petrol-head, I was always more of a Jet-A head. I also learned a lot from the various supervisors and staff there, to the point where I routinely saw them all at least once a week. (Helps that the sim is in the same area).
A few years ago, after costs kept spiralling the airline considered its future under a sales act enacted since its privatisation in 1992, and considered the long term viability of its operation. Case studies were done, and it was decided to modernise all maintenance to streamline costs without affecting staff numbers or workload - find the time-wasters and organise better. This was done overall to around 8 departments. Throughout all of this, the union was constantly entering site and organising walkouts. Quintessentially, the company was trying to save these employees jobs and union kept encouraging these same employees to strike.
Anyways, as happens with a big airline, schedules were thrown out with the strikes, maintenance took longer in some cases and whilst even the former CEO was a champion of Australian Maintenance the union came in with new wage demands varying from 5%-25% depending on the level of qualification.
Low and behold the decision was made to close maintenance and disassemble the continuous improvement team assigned the task of saving the jobs of the staff.

So now, many with a mortgage, children and so on have lost their jobs in a highly unique industry with little hope for re-employment elsewhere as there aren't really any other competitors. Why, so far over 5000 families have been affected, and where is the union? Trying to find another host like the parasite it was. That's what a non compromising, reckless union does all the while receiving members dues, yet doing all it can to wreck efforts made by the company and others to save the business. That's my experience with unions, and when I hear cases like the Ford USA and the AWU I am genuinely surprised and supportive of such clever work. What I have seen personally is far from that, and the effect that some have had through sheer stupidity.
This BTW is not a stand alone case, take a look at the forensic analysis of Ansett. The union actually insisted that Boeing install a flight engineers chair on the flight deck of the 767, as the union would accept no redundancies to modernisation.
It doesn't take too many Craig Thompsons and the HSU or Julia Gillard and the AWU setting up a slush fund to realise that some people have no interest in the workers they're meant to represent, and only give a stuff about lining their own pockets. Whilst there is no doubt bad bosses, there is also bad unions.

[gtfpv]

yes i see your point LTD , especially in the last paragraph . there are always incompetent people in the workforce who hide behind unions so they don't get exposed , real unionists are democratic and vote for rights / strikes etc . it is hoped that the majority democratically decide what is right and what is wrong often union reps get shutdown on an agenda by the very membership . and negotiations commence .
the truth of the matter is though . the end result is often the same . the company shuts down anyways . that's why unions often dont back down !!! better to get your entitlements what your entitled to rather than sign them away and get done over shortly there after .
a big thing in this thread is holden employees redundancy entitlements packages being exuberant. make them 20 times higher and the company might then decide its too costly to close down in australia . CAN YOU SEE THE RELEVANCE , there is none !!!
what does it really come down too . the BIG end of town seeking higher profits !!!
OR loyalty to australian peoples lively hood .
i know what the union says . AND THEY ARE RIGHT .
IF YOU SAY TO YOURSELF . I AM GOING TO CLIMB MOUNT EVEREST ONE DAY . it will never happen . but if you want it to happen it will and theres a cost . the cost is not others making it easier for you to get there . its doing it .
thats where our corperates fail . the seek the easiest path to more money .

[concord]

In studying my bachelor of economics, I've found businesses in competitive industries must price close to cost price to remain competitive. Pricing above market price will face an extremely steep drop in quantity demanded. In an export competitive market where capital can be moved, an industry operating above market price will simply fail.
The soloution? '' normal prices for wages" - the price that justifies staying in that business. Find the minimum a worker can be reasonably paid, and any price above that wage will cause the industry to fail.

I believe all car factories are exactly the same. But the cost of labour and business in Australia is too high. This has caused the industry to shut down. The proof is the massive list of manufacturers who have left the country.

We would have a strong car industry if workers were paid the standard casual rate.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by concord

In studying my bachelor of economics, I've found businesses in competitive industries must price close to cost price to remain competitive. Pricing above market price will face an extremely steep drop in quantity demanded. In an export competitive market where capital can be moved, an industry operating above market price will simply fail.
The soloution? '' normal prices for wages" - the price that justifies staying in that business. Find the minimum a worker can be reasonably paid, and any price above that wage will cause the industry to fail.

I believe all car factories are exactly the same. But the cost of labour and business in Australia is too high. This has caused the industry to shut down. The proof is the massive list of manufacturers who have left the country.

We would have a strong car industry if workers were paid the standard casual rate.

and of course the economic pattern must follow suit right . where the business goes , the competition goes . what does your economics study say about class parity ? times are changing but we have been round for 10's of thousands of years . how did different parts of the world have vastly different living standards than others ?
this is my whole point , unions are not to blame for the economic downfall of australian society . the money is still there . its just going to more of the minority . IT WILL TAKE MORE THAN A STRIKE TO STOP IT .
So at all costs try to retain some of what we have , and then maybe grow and regain some of it the big end of town arent going to and never did give it to us .

we should also learn that unions aren't just people off the floor these days either , they are also highly educated in law economics and business . but often negotiations do not and are not based on education and law on both sides .

[2011G6E]

In the industry I am in, we're going through negotiations at the moment for a new agreement.
When my boss (the CEO) admits that six million fricking dollars a year after wages, bonuses, and perks is taken into account, plus a recent eighteen percent pay rise, is "excessive" and takes a huge pay cut, then us lowly workers will stop asking for a measly 4% pay rise...

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

In the industry I am in, we're going through negotiations at the moment for a new agreement.
When my boss (the CEO) admits that six million fricking dollars a year after wages, bonuses, and perks is taken into account, plus a recent eighteen percent pay rise, is "excessive" and takes a huge pay cut, then us lowly workers will stop asking for a measly 4% pay rise...

you think your more likely to get another ceo here bagging the 6 mill and 18%.

or someone who works bagging the 4% claim .

anyways . all the best holden employees . stick to your guns . your jobs are being taken away from you , you did not cause it .
working for less or signing away rights will only give them higher profits during the transition and make it cheaper for the next company to follow suit , and one day when it's all gone . the people will come and take it back .

[Gobes32]

Wages have only been an issue in the last 5 years, as Asia has become more and more stronger. 10 years ago the auto industry was high paying and Holden were making record profits year on year. So why is it a problem now? Wages is only one of the answers, there are bigger issues at play here.

[P6LTD351]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

In the industry I am in, we're going through negotiations at the moment for a new agreement.
When my boss (the CEO) admits that six million fricking dollars a year after wages, bonuses, and perks is taken into account, plus a recent eighteen percent pay rise, is "excessive" and takes a huge pay cut, then us lowly workers will stop asking for a measly 4% pay rise...

This old chestnut. I'm sick of workers looking at the CEO's wages and trying to compare and demand that they take a cut as well. Typical politically correct society where no one respects hierarchy anymore. Your CEO is the C E O. You are the worker. Nothing stopping you from becoming a CEO one day. Maybe workers should concentrate on 'working' more, rather than worrying about what their boss gets. In this economy, we are lucky we have jobs.

I believe unions have a place. GOOD unions that is. Not the ones that only encourage their members to milk the system. In my workplace, all the union does is encourage their members to take their sick leave without expecting the workplace to address poor attendance. All of the reps coincidentally happen to be the poor performers. I would think unions would want to be represented by high performers, but alas, they need members, so if people are happy in their workplace, this union doesn't like it. Why? They want new members. It's all about the money.

[eb2fairmont]

You know an ***. Line worker getting 60-80 k isn't excessive. It's the overtime that boots it to 110k. So people working outside of the conditions they were employed for get compensated.

It's cheaper than hiring another full time equivalent for the job. So frankly it's a blowing smoke article by that right wing fwit bolt. Who would be up in arms if his kiddie wasn't getting compensated for overtime.



I have no issue with this as a salaried worker I get nothing for overtime.

The devil is in the detail.

[Gobes32]

Originally Posted by eb2fairmont

You know an ***. Line worker getting 60-80 k isn't excessive. It's the overtime that boots it to 110k. So people working outside of the conditions they were employed for get compensated.

.

Except they don't. It has been mentioned NUMEROUS times in this thread it is actually between 50-55k depending on skill level.

[2011G6E]

The worst part is that companies always ask "what are you willing to give up?" to get a pay rise. I will quickly add that I'm not talking about industries that are on their last legs...I mean industries that are doing well and yes, those whose CEO's are getting huge bonuses and pay rises because of how well the company is doing.
Why do workers have to give away hard won rights and conditions to get a small pay rise? What is wrong with just accepting that people are giving up lifespan to decide to work for you, so reward them for it?

I'd make a crap boss...I'd be more like the mining magnates that realise that a happy and productive and well paid workforce with good conditions is going to be far more loyal and happy than one who is always on their toes and belligerent towards management because management has made it quite clear they don't care about the plebs down on the factory floor...

[stevz]

Originally Posted by ltd

Wow. I have stirred the ire of the resident Holden loyalist.
Obviously you can't discern between oranges and apples or in this case Holden and Ford, so trying to illustrate anything to you would be akin to hitting oneself in the groin repeatedly with a rubber mallet.
Bossxr8 works for Ford, you know, the company that has relative market independence sufficient for head office to pull the pin and announce three years out their imminent closure of manufacturing locally. What he describes, is what has happened at Ford.

Holden is a closed union shop, much like Qantas is, and I have had experience with the latter. Whilst you bang on about your beloved Holden and how they can do no wrong as you do in all of your responses on this forum, blind faith alone from ignorant fan-boys like yourself is not going to save the company.

The facts are thus, the company has a massive wage bill which is driven largely by various union demands, allowances and bonuses and the company is losing money on the order of between 200 million to 400 million dollars a year. It requires government assistance to keep going and is teetering on the edge of closure due to their inability to reign in expenses and turn a profit. These figures are readily available for anyone with a modicum of intelligence; although often ignored by the blind loyalist fan-boy which is exactly what I imagine you to be.
Much the same as Qantas maintenance, whilst the bottom line dictates that it's far too expensive to continue, industrial action will ensure the death knell of Holden as it did to Qantas maintenance. This happens when you work in a a global market place, something that your typical union delegate is either too short sighted or ignorant to believe. That's why they keep making unreasonable demands which they hold the company over a barrel to receive - it's short sighted and doomed to fail as the market catches up to what is acceptable as other countries bid for and are able to do the same job for much less. Failing that, the company needs subsidy or faces closure.

Tell me VZ, where exactly in this modern day and age has union influence over commercial ventures ended well for employees? Whilst I whole heartedly agree they did have a place in the past, where in the globally competitive market place in the last 10 years have they actually achieved a desirable outcome that has gone on to record company success?

Face it, Holden will close down and some of the revelations to come out as to how it was run and what people were paid will astound most, much the same as the claims about the ABC and their employees were paid last week.

I fail to see any correlation between my alleged brand allegiance and the topic of this discussion. As far as I am concerned we may as well be discussing the wages of Coles and Woolworths employees.
Fact of the matter is that you have made a false and outrageous statement which you cannot back up and in your typical manner you resort to name calling, insults, innuendo and a heap of off topic waffle in an attempt to save face.
Several members including those with first hand knowledge have denounced your claims as ridiculous yet you are still too stubborn and full of self importance to see reality?

[Itsme]

Back on topic, in my opinion if Holden did pay the workers award wages they would still be putting their hands out for government assistance.
The truth of the matter is that they are not selling the required number of vehicles to make their business profitable.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

have no penalty rates

arguably, its ridiculous to choose a job with weekend/night hours, and then expect to be compensated over and above the agreed hourly rate. don't want to work those hours, then don't. and some of these weekend workers are now holding their hands out wanting a tip. give me a break.

dont pay people if they cant work from being sick

people treat it as annual leave anyway, taking sickies here and there, an extra day after a long weekend etc. lost count of the number of times someone used up their sickies earlier in the year, then showed up to work sick when it was used up.

no superranuation ( why should a boss/ company fund a persons retirement

tell me one good reason why an employer should be responsible for YOUR retirement? are you incapable of saving your own money???

be sacked when someone in cahrge decides he doesn't want you around , for any reason at all

people are hardly ever sacked for trivial reasons. more often than not, they've been difficult, insubordinate, etc. why does someone have to get X chances? ever noticed the correlation between having a second written warning, and the likelihood of a subsequent workplace injury?

and the truth is unions are to blame that we have all these rights

all the rights in the world are meaningless when there's no longer a job with which to have them.

Australia is the land of entitlement. most people are born with a chip on their shoulder and an expectation that they are owed something by society