NSW HWP GT 150 400kw damaged

[FPV+fteT3]

The specialy built custom tuned 400kw GT Rspec has suffered major engine damage after being run on .....wait for it........E10 but we saved @$5 on each tank of fuel we put in it.


http://smh.drive.com.au/motor-news/e...ref_map=%5B%5D

[Pepscobra]

Cool... so the R-Spec is back in action?

Interesting footnote to the article too... seems the rumours of the HSV GTS failure, were just that... rumours?

[ray38l]

From talking to a few people the GTS has never had a problem. I spoke to Steve from oztrack as well as a police officer who has driven it recently and apparently its running fine. Steve is threatening people with legal action all over the place.
Without going into to much detail, if what i have been told happened then walkinshaw are going to be in a world of pain. It will be interesting what will come of it.

[CAT600]

People can blame E10 (and ergo any Ethanol fuels) all they want but the ONLY problem with Ethanol based fuels is the ignorant people that use it without doing any research.

Lazy people that dont do their research = deserving fools.

As far as this car is concerned, if it wasnt setup properly with the right tune and the right supporting mods then any fuel could have cause a failure.

91
E10
95
98
P100
Ethanol

Any of them.

Daniel

[dmat2391]

Just wondering if when using E10 do you actually burn more fuel and with the mandated environmental emission all cars spit out cleaner anyway so isn't this "cleaner fuel" a little B.S. happy to be corrected by people that know more than me

[ebv8]

either the driver cained the c@#t out of it or was retarded enough to not hear it ping its head off
he would have to be trained on his golds and if he was highway patrol he is more than likely a car enthusiest so why did he wait until the engine block split? i'm sure it would have let him/her know something was wrong

[CAT600]

Originally Posted by dmat2391

Just wondering if when using E10 do you actually burn more fuel and with the mandated environmental emission all cars spit out cleaner anyway so isn't this "cleaner fuel" a little B.S. happy to be corrected by people that know more than me

Any gasoline based fuel that has ethanol added will burn cleaner, thats fact

As for consumption, the car in closed loop will always chase stoich so it will trim (add in the case of E10) a little fuel in to reach 14.7 or whatever Ford have set as the target AFR... some cars will chase 15.0 as an example... E10 is around 4% leaner and our cars can easily account for that in closed loop short term trims. Consider that E10 fuels are a few cents cheaper than 91 but have the equivalent octane of closer to 95 premium its not a big deal.

When in open loop however the car will not be adding additional fuel and will be operating in speed density where its using MAP, IAT and TPS among other sensors to "approximate" the air being injested therefore calculating fuel to that based on 100% gasoline fuel... using E10 will effectively be leaner which is where the tune needs to be right. The factory tune in open loop on these cars is fine for the 4% or so that E10 fuels are throwing it out by but if the car was then custom tuned for 98 octane (to make around 400rwkw for example) and the fuel pump and injectors were close to being maxed out then an E10 based fuel has the potential to hurt an engine.

P100 (100 octane E10 fuel) has been reliably run in plenty of 9-10psi boost cars to 400-420rwkw for many months now, theres no issue with it apart from the humans playing with the tune (or not).

Education, goes a long way.

Daniel

[Bluehoon]

If memory serves correctly, this issue would be more to do with who tuned it, rather than what it was tuned to run on.

As cat600 said, it can be tuned to run on any fuel and any fuel can cuse the issues if not tuned correctly.

Considering, I'm almost certain who did the work, this is hardly a surprise.

[Trump]

Already a thread for this

http://fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11413264

[Mulga]

Originally Posted by dmat2391

Just wondering if when using E10 do you actually burn more fuel and with the mandated environmental emission all cars spit out cleaner anyway so isn't this "cleaner fuel" a little B.S. happy to be corrected by people that know more than me

Happy to be corrected on this (this does not relate to the vehicle in this thread, but just in general) but it is my understanding that E10 does not have the same amount of energy in comparison with unleaded, therefore it needs to burn more which can increase consumption by around 2-3%. So any saving at the bowser is generally off-set by an increase in fuel consumption. I've used E10 in our SZ Territory and have found we don't get the same mileage as we do with 95.

[Road Games]

Originally Posted by Loud_Noises

Already a thread for this

http://fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11413264

Bugger i was gonna start another ?

http://smh.drive.com.au/motor-news/e...204-31y86.html

PING is POWAAAHHHHHHH

[dragons90]

Originally Posted by CAT600

Any gasoline based fuel that has ethanol added will burn cleaner, thats fact

Daniel

It does burn cleaner but not as much as they claim, when they compare co2 per litre where it should be co2 per km its a lot closer, because of the fact you use more ethanol then petrol.

[Nikked]

Worst thing is the attention is place on the E10, not the fact that the car was tuned specifically for a certain fuel (and the rumours say that the tune is dodge...)


Bit unfortunate for the progression of E10...

[CAT600]

Yes it is and I agree it should be compared CO2 per km or its not a viable comparison... As for "not much cleaner" it is only 10% what can you expect?

However this is assuming all/vast majority closed loop operation so when you drive a boosted performance car in and out of closed/open loop the difference is larger as the engine is able to make more power from each combustion stroke and therefore requires less air (ergo fuel) to travel a measured distance.

And the more ethanol you add the greater the cleaning effect in the chamber... it literally does "scrub" the exhaust clean

And here's a though.... every litre of ethanol burnt is actually helping a farmer indirectly as the $$ end up back in farming either directly (ethanol purchased) or indirectly (molasses/beet/husks bought from farmers post-food crop use) and in farm aids (tax relief

The alternative?........... making a Saudi oil baron richer!

Daniel

[nstg8a]

I have the e10 'discussion' seemingly every week on some forum.

Personally, in my lane I cant feel any difference in smoothness power or any other bumometer, between e10 and premium. And kays per tank only varies by 30-40kms on a full tank. Which could easily be differet driving patterns etc.

I always wonder when I read someone saying their cars turns into a dog on e10 whether there is another underlying issue causing it

[Nikked]

Used E10 in my ELXR6...didn't split the block or dissolve my fuel lines...did seem to improve economy a fraction...

[dmat2391]

cat600

And here's a though.... every litre of ethanol burnt is actually helping a farmer indirectly as the $$ end up back in farming either directly (ethanol purchased) or indirectly (molasses/beet/husks bought from farmers post-food crop use) and in farm aids (tax relief

The alternative?........... making a Saudi oil baron richer!

first thanks for taking the time to explain and answer my question
With the above quote though I'd like to suggest, with limited productive land ,setting some of it aside to "feed" our cars is perhaps healthier for said car but not the most efficient use of productive land...........still awesome reply and thanks again

[CAT600]

No problem.

Government incentives (and the price of ethanol-based waste crop) vs the quality of livestock feed that it could be used as will always be a see-saw of which way is more viable... sometimes the energy value (quality) of what is used to make ethanol is either substandard for livestock feed or is in overabundance compared to what is required so its going to be "wasted" either way.

I did read up a fair bit on this back in 2007/2008 when I wanted to buy E98 in drums from the eastern states as it always struck me as odd that a product could be made in such quantities to basically sustain an entire economy (the example of Brazil) without detracting from their foodbowl... its not a total solution and never will be but its better than nothing and certainly better then 100% foreign oil dependency IMO

Daniel

[dmat2391]

cheers!
more a comment on how market forces can sometimes distort what the community actually needs. for example the corn belt in the U.S.A
We live in a closed system,regardless if we like it or not, so it will all balance out in the end.
And yeah what the automotive engineers have developed with the modern day motor with a operating system that truly " JUST WORKS" has to be shouted from the highest hills in my opinion

[XR Martin]

My theory is that both the GT and GTS have been blown up...With the info leaked on the Ford to take the current heat off Oztrack...

Oh BTW, E10 is atleast 94 RON...

[XR Martin]

The CO2 debate between Ethanol and gasoline is irrelevant, the significant difference between the two is the reduction of carcinogens with Ethanol.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

The CO2 debate between Ethanol and gasoline is irrelevant, the significant difference between the two is the reduction of carcinogens with Ethanol.

...and the it reduces the use of petroleum.

[Franco Cozzo]

I use some form of E10 in my tuned Falcon, United 100, doesnt make a difference compared to BP98, so I just use United 100.

[ratter]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Oh BTW, E10 is atleast 94 RON...

and some is 100 octane

too many people think e10 is just the rubbish fuel

[GT2]

Originally Posted by CAT600

Yes it is and I agree it should be compared CO2 per km or its not a viable comparison... As for "not much cleaner" it is only 10% what can you expect?

However this is assuming all/vast majority closed loop operation so when you drive a boosted performance car in and out of closed/open loop the difference is larger as the engine is able to make more power from each combustion stroke and therefore requires less air (ergo fuel) to travel a measured distance.

And the more ethanol you add the greater the cleaning effect in the chamber... it literally does "scrub" the exhaust clean

And here's a though.... every litre of ethanol burnt is actually helping a farmer indirectly as the $$ end up back in farming either directly (ethanol purchased) or indirectly (molasses/beet/husks bought from farmers post-food crop use) and in farm aids (tax relief

The alternative?........... making a Saudi oil baron richer!

Daniel

Can you please clarify something for my understanding.
When you say "in and out of closed/open loop", does the ECU actually alternate between the 2 or is it 2 entirely different methods of tuning?

One other question, i have a 69 model GT with a 393CI alloy headed Windsor (around 480hp). Can i add some e10 with the 98 octane i usually run to clean out any built up carbon?

[dragons90]

You'd be better of using united p100 if you can get it, it's 98 plus 10% ethanol.

[CAT600]

Closed loop is part throttle and cruise... uses the O2 sensors to feedback for perfect stoichiometric burn think of it as a carb car with perfect jetting for cruise

Open loop is WOT and high throttle % where the MAP sensor is seeing higher load and the air fuels are richer... think of it as your power valve in operation

Thats on the same car, but basically two different modes of operation for the different way the car runs cruise vs power

Daniel

[nt0351]

im in agreement with a few of you here, more a bad tune issue would have caused it to go bang rather than the fuel ,..its just easier for all concerned to blame the E10 ,

ive actually been in this thing at full pelt on a private track for a charity day,.sure it made all the right noises ,but no way I could feel 400 killerwatts,..I remember thinking my G6ET would have creamed it.
something was wrong it wasn't happy revving out .

[GT2]

Originally Posted by CAT600

Closed loop is part throttle and cruise... uses the O2 sensors to feedback for perfect stoichiometric burn think of it as a carb car with perfect jetting for cruise

Open loop is WOT and high throttle % where the MAP sensor is seeing higher load and the air fuels are richer... think of it as your power valve in operation

Thats on the same car, but basically two different modes of operation for the different way the car runs cruise vs power

Daniel

Thanks for clarifying.
And the question of adding some e10 to an older engine, will it cause damage to carb gaskets, mechanical fuel pumps, etc or will it be fine to clear carbon build up?

[CAT600]

Originally Posted by GT2

Thanks for clarifying.
And the question of adding some e10 to an older engine, will it cause damage to carb gaskets, mechanical fuel pumps, etc or will it be fine to clear carbon build up?

Ill be honest and say I dont know... when ethanol came out everyone carried on that it would be like Methanol and destroy everything in sight like frigging Godzilla in Tokyo.

The fact is even E85 is very forgiving to everything except some rubbers... E10 is far less agressive again but I am not able to give you a definitive answer mate... there are a few Clevo guys that have gone down this road with carbs, maybe do a search on it

Daniel