Details emerge - VF Commodore

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Hmm, so maybe Ford is understating how much is being spent on 2014 update......or maybe features delayed from FGII update?

Could be both John. Graziano said about a year ago there was "one final update" planned for E8 (this is the 2014 update), this was long before the announcement at the beginning of this year of a taxpayer and FoMoCo cash injection, which, as I understand it, was restricted to fuel efficiency improvements anyway.

For Graziano to say over a year ago there was another model in the works - this was before FGII came out too - means that it had already been budgeted for and work being conducted on the model.

There was also a few things we know were supposed to be implemented on FG and FGII but were cut on cost grounds...capless refuelling and a plastic boot floor were two that spring to mind. The rest of it will simply be parts bin stuff from around the globe.

But it won't matter what it gets, people on this forum will still whinge and crap on about how crap it is...

[yift]

$100million for an updated Falcon?? it cost Ford $50million plus $millions from PBR-Bosch to try and fix the brake shudder problem that plagued the BA-Bf range.

i wonder if they will fix the diff bush issue with that money?? maybe the SAT NAV issue that is still a problem on the Territory and FG 2 Falcon.

it is easy to say Ford do this and include that in your cars.
Why should they invest in these new features when clearly these vehicles are not even up to world standards to begin with.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

There was also a few things we know were supposed to be implemented on FG and FGII but were cut on cost grounds...capless refuelling and a plastic boot floor were two that spring to mind. The rest of it will simply be parts bin stuff from around the globe.

Add voice control to that list. There were SZ Territory prototypes running around with voice control integrated, right down to the steering wheel button and symbol being in place. It never made it to the Territory or FG2.

[Nikked]

Perhaps its up the sleave for midlife upgrades....

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by dylancox

Not bashing the AU. Bashing the source of the AU design: the parent company who forced the 'new edge' styling concept on Ford AUS. If Ford AUS had their own say in the design they probably would have churned out the BA or a rehashed top-seller EL in 1998. Surely more sales would mean recouped investment and more money future R&D which we would have seen by now.

Person A will say America forced the styling on us. Person B will say the locals went with an attempt at the global styling to get the program approved.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

Person A will say America forced the styling on us. Person B will say the locals went with an attempt at the global styling to get the program approved.

AU was aussie designed...

americas idea for a Au was shocking

[Mr Hardware]

dylancox, the VT ran for over 3 years, the AU1 only ran for 18 months. If you're trying to make a point, start by making a credible argument.

[Grunter]

Originally Posted by duaned

I think I would still rather have a car than a toy.

I'd rather both.

[bobthebilda]

Top models get a key fob with a button that can start the engine remotely – a system developed for the Caprice PPV (Police Patrol Vehicle) so police officers can start the car and thus the air-conditioning system when an arrested person is locked in the car.

A more conventional round plastic-finished steering wheel is destined for the lower models, which will also miss out on the keyless start

So the top of the range gets some extras, but the lower models (which make up a fair percentage of commodore current sales), get nothing, and probably get even cheaper and nastier.

1 year ago, some panels were going to be aluminium (they even got $40 million for it), now its back to the same ol same ol. Holden have spent the last 5 years cheapening the vast majority of the commodore range, and it looks like the VF will continue along those lines.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by yift

$100million for an updated Falcon?? it cost Ford $50million plus $millions from PBR-Bosch to try and fix the brake shudder problem that plagued the BA-Bf range.

i wonder if they will fix the diff bush issue with that money?? maybe the SAT NAV issue that is still a problem on the Territory and FG 2 Falcon.

it is easy to say Ford do this and include that in your cars.
Why should they invest in these new features when clearly these vehicles are not even up to world standards to begin with.

Ford was well aware of the diff bush issues and the changes bundled in with the upgraded axles for S/C 5.0

Something to remember is customer expectation and revenue generated from local products.

1) Customer expectation.
Six months before all the novelties were introduced on titanium Mondeo, most Ford buyers were happy with
options supplied of Falcon but since the awareness level of buyers is now raised, more is suddenly
expected to be a "world class" car. Falcon needs to roll these changes in to keep costs under control
and keep Falcon fresh and in front of buyers.

2) Revenue to Ford Australia.
In spite of the extremely low sales numbers of late, 2,500 vehicles per month is still significant revenue
to Ford Australia. So for a piddling $50 million from Ford and $53 million from the government, Ford gets
another two years out of falcon. The money is already spent, the work mostly done, it would be a shame
to kiss that off without trying to recover as much as possible.

3) value in internal supply contracts - who knows how much work and revenue for other Ford centres
is generated in providing parts for the local cars..it probably still makes sense to keep going even though
sales look pretty low..

[BHDOGS]

Why bother arguing with the ford knockers as for the au get over it ur worse then an ex still complaining after 10 year your **** got dumped let it go

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

So the top of the range gets some extras, but the lower models (which make up a fair percentage of commodore current sales), get nothing, and probably get even cheaper and nastier.

1 year ago, some panels were going to be aluminium (they even got $40 million for it), now its back to the same ol same ol. Holden have spent the last 5 years cheapening the vast majority of the commodore range, and it looks like the VF will continue along those lines.

No, I wouldn't put too much stock into this article being conclusive or comprehensive.
Holden got money for increasing Commodore's fuel economy, lighter construction
and different materials like alloy panels is part of it but I hear a whisper that layer
build process is key to weight reductions. It could be that Holden achieved its
weight targets this way instead of using alloy panels, we don't know for sure just yet..

Aussie dollar dipped down to 97.4 cents yesterday and will go lower keeping our resources exports prosperity continuing

[Rodge]

Originally Posted by yift

the main reason territory got EPAS was because Park Assist was going to be a feature available with it.

Ford Australia can include so many features with their vehicles, try telling the champs running the place that the buying public want these features.

voice control, Radar cruise control, blind spot alert, Key Free, heated front seats, rain sensing wipers, mirrors that fold in with the press of a button etc etcthe list is endless of the features they can include in the Falcon and Terriroty that the rest of the world has been using for at least 5 years.

The need this tech in top line FPV cars along with a proper premium stereo.

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

Person A will say America forced the styling on us. Person B will say the locals went with an attempt at the global styling to get the program approved.

American Styling? i thought it's style was European influenced

Originally Posted by Rodge

The need this tech in top line FPV cars along with a proper premium stereo

@Rodge, you are right that FPV are pretty low spec for a top of the line falcon.

[turbodewd]

Rain-sensing wipers are the stupidest 'advance' in auto tech Ive ever heard of.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

Oh come on, that is so misleading, GM was bankrupt - what were they supposed to do? The export program was a victim of the entire Pontiac brand being axed. Both before and after bankruptcy GM has looked after Holden - GTO export program, billion dollar VE budget, G8 export program, PPV export program, SS export program, local Cruze production, ongoing Commodore R&D.

How is it misleading, it's exactly what happened. Sure GM looked after Holden before bankruptcy because it made a profit and had cars GM US didn't build, and after banckruptcy because it has had Oz Fed Gov. assistatance (as Ford Oz) however during bankruptcy it was the orphan without an orphanage.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Grunter

I'd rather both.

Damn straight.

Cars, just like phones, TV's etc are like anything mass produced product and have a look at an iphone these days!

Good on GM for pushing the envelop, because if they didnt you can bet Ford wouldnt bother adding more stuff in the Falcon aswell. Linking the Falcon into the global parts bin cant happen soon enough.

Ford have the tech, the people and the products, they just need to link it all together.

edit: in saying that I cant ever see myself buy a TV with 3D

[blownvn]

Wish they'd stop using Valiant codes. I tell people I've got a VE ute and they ask if it's an SS.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by blownvn

Wish they'd stop using Valiant codes. I tell people I've got a VE ute and they ask if it's an SS.

And E-series...

[Polyal]

Oh come on I find it amusing that HSV has something in common with this..

[medz84]

good on holden and ford lets hope they both stick around for many years!!
the more features they receive the more it justifies their price tag!!

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

How is it misleading, it's exactly what happened. Sure GM looked after Holden before bankruptcy because it made a profit and had cars GM US didn't build, and after banckruptcy because it has had Oz Fed Gov. assistatance (as Ford Oz) however during bankruptcy it was the orphan without an orphanage.

It's misleading because you tried to paint the picture that GM doesn't care about Holden, when clearly it does. What GM has done for Holden, Ford will never do for its Australian branch.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

It's misleading because you tried to paint the picture that GM doesn't care about Holden, when clearly it does. What GM has done for Holden, Ford will never do for its Australian branch.

It not a picture it's fact, only time care is shown is when it suits GM corp and without the line of credit during gfc it was gone in a few months and local brass have admitted so after a few years,......not even Ford Oz had that knife to it's throat...And maybe the local boys have done repeated studies that show the viability is not there, which Holden has shown repeatedly with losses....T6 made more money here then any export program for Holden....anyway this is not VF related... although the huge boast on aluminium panels now seems to have been dropped, lol...

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

It not a picture it's fact, only time care is shown is when it suits GM corp and without the line of credit during gfc it was gone in a few months and local brass have admitted so after a few years,......not even Ford Oz had that knife to it's throat...And maybe the local boys have done repeated studies that show the viability is not there, which Holden has shown repeatedly with losses....T6 made more money here then any export program for Holden....anyway this is not VF related... although the huge boast on aluminium panels now seems to have been dropped, lol...

Doc, the line of credit which was extended during the GFC was for developing an export vehicle.
AFAIK, that government credit was never used, the funding for Caprice PPV came from another source.

As for Holden viability, it was part fot GM's viability plan submitted to US treasury
when GM entered bankruptcies as one division it wanted to keep.
Interestingly, GM head office placed Holden as strategically important in the Asian region.

No one knows what's for sure in Holden's VF and whether more changes are planned
at refreshes two years after its release but it's a good guess that weight savings
and improved fuel economy will be there.

[Windsor220]

Originally Posted by yift

$100million for an updated Falcon?? it cost Ford $50million plus $millions from PBR-Bosch to try and fix the brake shudder problem that plagued the BA-Bf range.

i wonder if they will fix the diff bush issue with that money?? maybe the SAT NAV issue that is still a problem on the Territory and FG 2 Falcon.

it is easy to say Ford do this and include that in your cars.
Why should they invest in these new features when clearly these vehicles are not even up to world standards to begin with.

Do you think other cars dont suffer their own problems? Heaps of other manufacturers suffer Sat Nav and tech issues. If Holden fixed all the issues with Commodore they wouldn't have the money to add anything else.

[Bossxr8]

The Commodore is going to leap a whole generation ahead of Falcon.

All Falcon will get is a little bit of a styling change and a few tricks to lower economy via low rolling resistance tyres, a little better aero and a second gen ZF 6 speed that provides 2-3% economy improvement on its own.

Tech won't be much different i'd imagine. Falcon will fall behind again. It won't get the tech it needs, not for $103 million, thats chump change.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The Commodore is going to leap a whole generation ahead of Falcon.

All Falcon will get is a little bit of a styling change and a few tricks to lower economy via low rolling resistance tyres, a little better aero and a second gen ZF 6 speed that provides 2-3% economy improvement on its own.

Tech won't be much different i'd imagine. Falcon will fall behind again. It won't get the tech it needs, not for $103 million, thats chump change.

i agree and i think this is fair as falcon went a whole generation ahead of the ve when the fg was released in 2008 , anyone driven a VE lately? they compete well with the ba and bf .

[ivorya]

Unfortunately for Ford Aus, they've been behind the 8-ball for to long. GM-Holden have been raiding the GM-world parts bin for yrs, and prob saving a large amount of $$$ on the way.
This ONE-FORD policy can't come quick enough for Ford Aus.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The Commodore is going to leap a whole generation ahead of Falcon.

All Falcon will get is a little bit of a styling change and a few tricks to lower economy via low rolling resistance tyres, a little better aero and a second gen ZF 6 speed that provides 2-3% economy improvement on its own.

Tech won't be much different i'd imagine. Falcon will fall behind again. It won't get the tech it needs, not for $103 million, thats chump change.

Three things Boss,
1) VF is an evolution of VE, not a whole new platform Holden was planning for prior to the Global Financial Crisis.
So Holden's refresh will be incremental change and not the whole new generation impact that VE was back in 2006

2) Holden is in the same boat financially as Ford, their budget for VF is $189 million versus $103 million for Falcon
and Holden has to do LHD equivalents in that amount as well, so I'd call it all even especially with the Export risk.

3) VF will be three years old by the time E8 is replaced in 2016 so it will be interesting to see what type of
new big car Holden punts for by mid 2017 and I hope they get RWD for the good of the Aussie manufacturing.

Without getting too depressed at the moment, both manufacturers have to keep going with their respective products,
keep plugging away with advertising and get whatever sales they can, Ford need to push Ecoboost and Diesel Territory
for that double win with fuel economy down around 8 litre/100 km .

[FPV GTHO]

Pre GFC, VF was never going to be an all new car or an all new top hat anyway. It was originally rumoured to bring in a front end similar to the Torana concept and take the car away from the VZ/VE styling cues.