Great Wall and Chery vehicles to be recalled over use of asbestos.

[EgoFG]

OK, probably the wrong time to ask ..... but,

Has anyone on here purchased a Chinese manufactured car ?
What is your experience/opinion ?

[jmack]

i have 2 actually a biante and a classic collectable and even their quality isnt that good sometimes so no way would i buy a full size one

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

do people seriously expect these vehicles to last any more than a few years before they fall to pieces.

They just said 'life of the vehicle', which isn't that long.

on the flipside, i don't see a problem with using asbestos in gaskets, provided the mechanics are all aware of it and take precautions when disassembling them. it's not like in your house where it was free to fall from the pipes. as a gasket it's crushed between two pieces of steel.

[delete94]

You’re right Jim Goose, and I agree completely, companies need to make a profit. I know it’s not realistic for companies to make products that last 15 or 20 years any more. I guess I was just trying to illustrate a point about changes in peoples expectations.

But, built in obsolescence aside, if you’re buying a big name brand, I still think there is an expectation that you’re buying a “quality” product, and I certainly still have an expectation that it’s going to last more than 6 months before something goes wrong. If I was happy to accept that, I would just buy a no name brand for less than half the price, and not complain. And then to compound everything, it takes two months to get fixed because they are “waiting on parts”!

What annoys me is that things seem to have swung completely in the other direction. As you said, companies used to have pride in their products and reputation. Today though, companies just don’t seem to give rats, about their products or reputation, or, in particular, the consumer, the ones who are actually still keeping them profitable.

[Chopped]

Originally Posted by EgoFG

OK, probably the wrong time to ask ..... but,

Has anyone on here purchased a Chinese manufactured car ?
What is your experience/opinion ?

My work has one. The Great Wall V240 (petrol) ute. To be honest I can't fault it yet (it has only done 3500kms though). I believe it is based on the previous generation Rodeo chassis and running gear and has the previous generation Mitsubishi engine in it. In Russia they are branded as Hover and have built up a loyal following amongst the 4WD community over there.

I have also driven the X240 (diesel) as a loan car. Not much of a "looker" on the outside (IMO) but inside it had everything. Electric everything, Big multimedia touchscreen, reverse camera, leather, blah blah blah. It had only done 10 000km so might be to early to tell but there were no creaks or groans and the build quality seemed good.

Great Wall must be a worry for the established ute brands. In the last few months I notice that the established brands are dropping their prices by a fair bit. So at the very least the Chinese brands have been good for competition.

This media story is a bit of a beat up IMO.
How many 90s cars are still on the roads with the same problems ? (heaps)
How did we all survive driving those cars from the 60s - 90s which had the same asbestos gaskets ?!!
Propaganda is a two way street.

I wouldn't dismiss the Chinese brands so easily, they will continue to make gains in our market.

In saying all of that, would I personally buy one ? - No, to me they are still an unknown in relation to resale.

[The Yeti]

lets look at it as what it is, its up to 8 engine gaskets, and Australian built cars were using it up until 2003.

Yea its not good and shouldnt have happend but in all realness its no big deal

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by The Yeti

lets look at it as what it is, its up to 8 engine gaskets, and Australian built cars were using it up until 2003.

Yea its not good and shouldnt have happend but in all realness its no big deal

Yes but the problem is asbestos is banned now and has been for a while.
A mechanic working on an old car would half expect that it may have old asbestos gaskets.... when working on a new car he would (wrongly) assume it has none.

If the car doesnt meet the CURRENT standard then it should never have been sold here.

The ADF spent a motsa removing every single asbestos brake pad being currently used on any vehicle... and any new gaskets or brake pads in any defence warehouse was disposed of.

[The Yeti]

I'm not saying its right that they have sold them here, and it should be rectified (even if thats just a decal under the bonnet that says somthing along the lines of "Warning some gaskets may contain Asbestos)

All I'm saying is its hardly worth a fireing squad

BA Falcons VY Commodors and the likes all contained it so we're not talking Old Cars. its been noted now so we know about it and we now know how to deal with it going forward

As for the ADF, I wasnt awear they were drving there ADF vehicels in to their Asbestos clad workshops & Parts stores to remove and dispose of asbestos pads and gaskets, I supose thats a good thing

[JG34JA]

Surprising this wasn't picked up before importation, (where are customs and regulatory authorities?) but it wouldn't be the first time this has occurred in Australia since the respective bans.

A compressed gasket is for the most not exposed, nor friable. When working on them precautions must be taken as aussie muscle has pointed out.

[TMC]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

While I agree with most of what you say delete94, the "high quality" brands MUST make a profit.. if items were made to last 15yrs then the product DOESNT SELL.... hence NO PROFIT.

There is built in obsolesence into all products these days, unlike30 or 40yrs ago where items were built to last and built to maintain a companies reputation.

My compaq laptop needed a new screen within 2months... new battery and fan after 6months, another new battery after 11months....

My Toshiba TV, lasted 2 months before it needed a new sound card....

Now go back to products your parents bought 30yrs ago:

Mums Westinghouse chest freezer... lasted 38yrs, repaired once due to flooding!
The GE fridge she got in the 1980s... lasted until 2010 and she got rid of it because it was getting rusty, but it still ran fine, repaired 2 times only.
Her new LG fridge needed a new fan after 21months.

Her old NEC TV lasted 28yrs! repaired 3 times....

If you make a product that lasts your company goes broke very quickly as we live in a "consumer" based society.

I know what you mean in regards to white goods. Deliberate obsolescence is designed into otherwise good engineering to make it break about 3 days outside of warranty expiry. That's why we forked out a bit of money for a Miele which they advertise as designed to last 20 years. So companies can exist quite well by building quality into there designs.

I was driving next to a V240 which I assume is a 4WD Great Wall. It looked unoffensive when next to it, but boy, the front on those things is an abomination of a styling failure, that even it's own mother would disown. What an ugly piece of faeces they are. Then I thought, maybe it drives OK and is fine inside, provided that you never need to look at it again from the front, or in daylight. But by the sounds of it, the whole experience is as bad as the front end styling. Yaaaarrrkkkkkk.

[Springfield_Johny]

Originally Posted by GCRXR6

There should never have to be recalls of defective goods that don't meet our standard. Why aren't these things tested to comply with our standards before being allowed to enter our market? Surely there must be some rules for imports to comply?

I'm sure at some stage ford and holden have both had recalls, your questions and comments could just as easily be aimed at these 2 Australian motoring manufacturers for failing to comply

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by GCRXR6
There should never have to be recalls of defective goods that don't meet our standard. Why aren't these things tested to comply with our standards before being allowed to enter our market? Surely there must be some rules for imports to comply?

The onus for compliance rests with the manufacturer and in this case, using asbestos gaskets
for exhaust seals is just plain dumb, old technology that everyone else moved off years ago.
Makes you wonder what's in their brake linings too hey.....

[G6E Turbo 2]

Yeah well thats why we should never have allowed these cheap and nasty bucketts of crap into this market
AND they take sales away from good cars including Ford

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by G6E Turbo 2

Yeah well thats why we should never have allowed these cheap and nasty bucketts of crap into this market
AND they take sales away from good cars including Ford

True but the gubment wants cheap cars flooding our showrooms......

Interesting that the watchdog isn't making the manufacturers replace those offending engine and exhaust gaskets right away.
Asbestos is only a worry when it's dust and can be inhaled, while it's in a solid like a gasket, it's not going anywhere.
Still bad I know but not bad like lagging or insulation blankets..

[smally289]

Mesothelioma took my Father from me well before his time.
While asbestos may be safe left undisturbed, that won't sit well with the mechanic's kids when he is on his death bed 35 years after working on a Great Wall. Watching the man that taught you how to be a man take his last gasping breath is not fun, trust me.
All it takes is 1 fibre to lodge in your lungs.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by aussie muscle

They just said 'life of the vehicle', which isn't that long.

on the flipside, i don't see a problem with using asbestos in gaskets, provided the mechanics are all aware of it and take precautions when disassembling them. it's not like in your house where it was free to fall from the pipes. as a gasket it's crushed between two pieces of steel.

What awareness and precautions? Its more like we've booked in over 50 cars to be done today, hurry up and cut corners left right and center to push them all out.

[stevz]

http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-new...815-247jv.html

Asbestos parts in recalled cars won't be replaced
August 15, 2012 - 2:52PM
ACCC's decision not to force makers to replace deadly parts labelled "disgraceful".

Almost 24,000 budget-priced Chinese cars have been recalled over asbestos fears, but instead of being fixed immediately, they will have warning stickers attached.

In a decision that has been labelled "disgraceful" by the car repair industry, the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission said it would monitor the recall of Chery and Great Wall vehicles with engines and exhaust gaskets containing the potentially deadly material, but not force the manufacturers to replace all the asbestos parts straight away.

Customers can request that the parts be replaced, but if they don't, their cars will simply have a warning sticker placed in the engine bay at the next service.

While the makers don't face any further action from the ACCC, they could face multi-million dollar fines from Customs and Border Protection.
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A spokesman for Customs said the Customs Act prohibited importation of all forms of asbestos.

"All Australian states and territories also prohibit the supply, sale, use and re-use of all forms of asbestos under domestic legislation," he said.

A penalty of up to $110,000, or three times the value of the goods (whichever is greater), applies if a company is found to have breached the regulations. If the total value of the gaskets in each vehicle affected by the recall is just $20, the fine could be $3 million.

The spokesman declined to comment on whether Customs would prosecute, but said it had issued fines in the past. In May this year, an engineering company in Western Australia was ordered to pay $64,000 in penalties and costs for importing asbestos in machinery parts.

The Australian Manufacturing Workers Union has called for immediate prosection.

"Asbestos kills people, it's that simple," AMWU national secretary Paul Bastian said.

"We call on prosecutions to be served on anyone who imports asbestos into Australia."

The ACCC's decision not to force an immediate replacement of parts has angered the chief executive of the Motor Traders Association, James McCall, who said the affected parts should be removed and replaced immediately.

"I think that's disgraceful, absolutely disgraceful. The damage that asbestos in motor vehicles has done to repairers and people in our side of the industry over the years is tragic, absolutely bloody tragic. And for these companies to be exporting vehicles that contain that sort of material is really a very poor reflection on the company and a poor reflection on the government for not better supervising the standard of the importers.

"They should be recalled and all those things replaced," he said.

He said the parts should never have made it to Australia in the first place. Asbestos has been banned in the car industry since 2004.

"These vehicles when they are imported are supposed to meet Australian standards and I'm quite sure there isn't a standard that says you can have asbestos parts in your vehicle. It's either a lack of regulation or a lack of supervision.

"If they are in breach of the existing regulations they should be dealt with under the regulations but if they are not in breach of the regulations then the regulations should be tightened.

"We fought hard to have asbestos abolished from vehicles because there were people dying," he said.

McCall said the recall would not be effective if parts were only replaced when they wore out.

"The car could have changed hands two or three times by then," he said.

A partner at compensation firm Maurice Blackburn, Andrew Dimsey, said it was "an absolute scandal" that asbestos was still being imported into Australia 50 years after it was identified as carcinogenic.

"There's been an importation ban in effect since 2004, so how does this happen? I just can't believe it," he said.

He said his firm had treated dozens of mechanics who had contracted terminal illnesses from exposure to asbestos in car components.

The risk of asbestos exposure was higher when a failed component was being replaced.

"Gaskets tend to break down because of the heat involved and that actually brings them into a more dangersous state because its the release of dust and the inhalation of dust that gives rise to the danger," he said.

The investigation was triggered by Customs and Border Protection officers, who detected the asbestos in imported spare parts. It is not yet known whether fines will be issued against the importer. Drive has contacted Customs and Border Protection for comment.

ACCC deputy chairwoman Delia Rickard said the asbestos was sealed in components within the cars and presented no health risk to consumers during normal use of the vehicle.

But she warned owners against carrying out any do-it-yourself maintenance on the vehicles.

"Asbestos is a prohibited hazardous substance and these engine and exhaust systems should only be worked on by qualified personnel using appropriate safety procedures," she said.

The importer of both Chinese brands, Ateco Automotive, will replace all spare parts containing the asbestos, but will not institute a retrospective refit of asbestos components on existing cars. Ateco has also instructed dealers to stop selling the vehicles containing asbestos and will replace the affected parts in its existing cars.

It will contact all owners to warn them of the hazard and arrange for warning stickers to be placed in the engine bays of affected vehicles. Training will also be offered to service technicians.

The move by the ACCC is a controversial one because it will limit the effectiveness of the recall. Typically, recall completion rates drop significantly after the first three years of ownership, as cars are sold on and the dealership loses contact with the vehicle.

But Rickard says the response was agreed upon after consultation with experts.

"We believe this is an adequate response in terms of the danger posed by the problem," she said.

Ateco Automotive has known about the issue for "a period of months" and has been working with various government departments including Work Cover and the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission to determine a course of action.

Despite the sensitivities surrounding asbestos – known to cause asbestosis, mesothelioma and lung cancer – Rickard said the automotive industry was experienced in managing the risk of asbestos, as cars sold before 2004 often had gaskets containing asbestos.

Asbestos was also commonly used in other car components including brake pads.

"However, consumers and automotive repairers must be made aware that the risk may be present in these much newer vehicles. This is the focus of the recall campaign," she said.

The ACCC will monitor the recall and Workplace Health and Safety authorities will look after the workplace issues.

An assessment commissioned on behalf of Ateco by occupational health and safety consultants Hibbs and Associates concluded there were "negligible" health risks for drivers, passengers and mechanics working on the cars.

"Even if carried out in an uncontrolled way, handling and removing these gaskets constitutes a very low asbestos related health risk," the report concludes.

However, the report acknowledges that in severe cases there is still some risk of breathing in asbestos fibres, saying: "During replacement of gaskets containing asbestos, severe mechanical abrasion would be required to release measurable quantities of respirable asbestos fibres."

The Victorian Automobile Chamber of Commerce, which represents more than 5000 Victorian automotive businesses, confirmed asbestos was commonly used in older cars.

"On these vehicles, service and repairer technicians replace old asbestos parts, when needing replacing due to wear, with non-asbestos parts, taking precautions and following approved procedures in the workplace, including wet down processes and wearing safety clothing, using appropriate equipment and disposing of asbestos parts in designated bins," David Purchase, VACC executive director, said.

The anticipated recall is a further blow to the credibility of Chinese car makers, which have already raised the ire of safety authorities that have criticised the occupant protection of some vehicles.

Before signing on as the exclusive Australian importer, Ateco said it was given "written assurances" from Great Wall and Chery that their vehicles complied with Australian regulations and did not contain any asbestos.

It is understood Ateco uncovered the presence of asbestos in various gaskets and notified Great Wall and Chery but was given further assurances it was not used in the production process.

It was later proved that there was asbestos in as many as eight gaskets in each vehicle (some vehicles have only one or two gaskets containing asbestos).

Ateco says it froze stock and asked the brands to stop production and replace the affected components, which has been done on newer models.

However, the fact the recall impacts two non-related brands brings into question the Chinese supply chain.

Chinese cars have proved tempting to Australians due to their cheap prices, with Great Wall this year being the 17th most popular brand of more than 50 on sale in Australia.

[SPArKy_Dave]

Originally Posted by jpd80

The onus for compliance rests with the manufacturer and in this case, using asbestos gaskets
for exhaust seals is just plain dumb, old technology that everyone else moved off years ago.
Makes you wonder what's in their brake linings too hey.....

And mixed into the under body deadening.........

[Shonky.]

Originally Posted by stevz

http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-news/asbestos-parts-in-recalled-cars-wont-be-replaced-20120815-247jv.html

what a crock of ****

perfect opportunity for the government to grow a pair and introduce some good old industry protectionism under the guise of safety like nations that have an interest in supporting their manufacturing industry would

Australia does not need these half baked, under engineered, peices of ****

If Australians want a car for $10k there are plenty of other alternatives, they don't need access to these pitiful cars

Local car industry does not have a chance and noboddy gives a **** cause they are too short sighted and are happy to drive one of these insults to save a few $'s

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Chopped

This media story is a bit of a beat up IMO.
How many 90s cars are still on the roads with the same problems ? (heaps)
How did we all survive driving those cars from the 60s - 90s which had the same asbestos gaskets ?!!
Propaganda is a two way street.

I wouldn't dismiss the Chinese brands so easily, they will continue to make gains in our market.

In saying all of that, would I personally buy one ? - No, to me they are still an unknown in relation to resale.

Back then they didn't know what asbestos could do. But to know what it can do then still use it is a total disgrace. They should hang their heads in shame, not that they'd give a rats.

And to add to that it's been banned in Australia for a long time now, and to blatantly be aware of it and totally disregard the ban it also shameful.

The ACCC should have absolutely thrown the book at them and made them replace every gasket at their expense. They say they are still investigating them so hopefully the recieve massive fines for doing it. Make an example of them that their dodgy dealings may fly in China where the cost of human life is next to nothing, but it won't fly here.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Back then they didn't know what asbestos could do. But to know what it can do then still use it is a total disgrace. They should hang their heads in shame, not that they'd give a rats.

And to add to that it's been banned in Australia for a long time now, and to blatantly be aware of it and totally disregard the ban it also shameful.

The ACCC should have absolutely thrown the book at them and made them replace every gasket at their expense. They say they are still investigating them so hopefully the recieve massive fines for doing it. Make an example of them that their dodgy dealings may fly in China where the cost of human life is next to nothing, but it won't fly here.

The effects of Asbestos have been know about widely for at least thirty years,
Ford GM and Chrysler in the US set up a joint fund to help pay sufferers of asbestosis
due to brake linings and other automotive parts, unfortunately GM and Chrysler went bankrupt
and the new incarnations are no longer liable, only Ford...but I digress,,

On topic,
A lot of regulators could have stopped this happening but were asleep at the switch, still are by all accounts.

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by Chopped

This media story is a bit of a beat up IMO.
How many 90s cars are still on the roads with the same problems ? (heaps)
How did we all survive driving those cars from the 60s - 90s which had the same asbestos gaskets ?!!
Propaganda is a two way street.
.

You do know how the cancer is formed?
ie: when fibres from gaskets, fibro, brake shoes get into your lungs...

As an OWNER of a car with asbestos it wouldnt affect them one little bit as the gaskets are sealed..
Now go and talk to mechanics who are the ones who end up ripping them off and breathing in the asbestos fibres... see if they enjoy the possibility of dieing.....

The ACCC backing down and saying sticker needs to be put on is a total cop out! This now leaves OPEN SLATHER to imported cars being full of banned asbestos products!

[Jim Goose]

Actually... I was just thinking about this...

In most states of Australia, its ILLEGAL to remove asbestos without a licence!
And you pay through the nose to get a licence.. and then you can charge like a wounded bull to remove asbestos.

Does the ACCC ruling by placing a asbestos sticker on a car make it illegal for a mechanic to remove the offending gaskets? ???

Will mechanics have to be asbestos removal accredited? or will they now have ring up an asbestos removal person???

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

Actually... I was just thinking about this...

In most states of Australia, its ILLEGAL to remove asbestos without a licence!
And you pay through the nose to get a licence.. and then you can charge like a wounded bull to remove asbestos.

Does the ACCC ruling by placing a asbestos sticker on a car make it illegal for a mechanic to remove the offending gaskets? ???

Will mechanics have to be asbestos removal accredited? or will they now have ring up an asbestos removal person???

You raise a very interesting point, a lot of workshops won't have staff trained in asbestos removal,
nor will they have the license or the insurance cover for this high risk activity.

Owners should be insisting on replacement now at the manufacturers expense, not later at their own..

I smell a hefty class action suit coming...

[xtremerus]

Those gaskets shouldn't have asbestos in them, BUT what is the common sense in getting them all replaced, when there are all the pre-2004 cars that have asbestos in them. There would be millions of them in Australia. Not just the 24000 Chinese cars.

Do we DEMAND that owners pay to remove all asbestos from their pre-2004 cars as well.

Common sense should prevail.

The threat of asbestos is a serious concern, but we are surrounded by the stuff.

If it is locked up, it doesn't present a problem. The removal, and disposing of it, for no good reason, can cause more problems.

[xtremerus]

Originally Posted by jpd80

You raise a very interesting point, a lot of workshops won't have staff trained in asbestos removal,
nor will they have the license or the insurance cover for this high risk activity.

Owners should be insisting on replacement now at the manufacturers expense, not later at their own..

I smell a hefty class action suit coming...

No licence required for small amounts of asbestos.

[bobthebilda]

Importing asbestos isnt against the law in certain instances. The Prohibited imports act says-

Importation of asbestos
(1) The importation into Australia of amphibole asbestos, or goods containing amphibole asbestos, is prohibited unless:
(a) the importation is of raw materials that contain naturally occurring traces of amphibole asbestos; or
(b) the Minister administering the Occupational Health and Safety Act 1991 or a person authorised by that Minister confirms that he or she has granted permission to import the amphibole asbestos or goods, and the confirmation is produced to a Collector; or
(c) the importation is of hazardous waste as defined in section 4 of the Hazardous Waste (Regulation of Exports and Imports) Act 1989 ;

See we can import it in as hazardous waste, just not as a gasket lol.

From memory, Holdens elizabeth plant is littered with the stuff in roofing materials. Far more likely for dust particles that have fallen onto a commodore seat to affect someone than particles from a gasket in the engine bay.

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by xtremerus

Those gaskets shouldn't have asbestos in them, BUT what is the common sense in getting them all replaced, when there are all the pre-2004 cars that have asbestos in them. There would be millions of them in Australia. Not just the 24000 Chinese cars.

Do we DEMAND that owners pay to remove all asbestos from their pre-2004 cars as well.

Common sense should prevail.

The threat of asbestos is a serious concern, but we are surrounded by the stuff.

If it is locked up, it doesn't present a problem. The removal, and disposing of it, for no good reason, can cause more problems.

When a law is made it isnt retrospective..... old cars with asbestos were built using the stuff when it was legal. In the same way a car from the 1960s DOESNT need rear seat belts today, as it was built to the standard of the day.
Its unreasonable to ask owners of those cars to upgrade their car to todays standard...

So... cars being imported TODAY... or being built TODAY ... must comply to TODAYS laws and legislation.

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

Importing asbestos isnt against the law in certain instances. The Prohibited imports act says-
Quote:
Importation of asbestos
(1) The importation into Australia of amphibole asbestos, or goods containing amphibole asbestos, is prohibited unless:
(a) the importation is of raw materials that contain naturally occurring traces of amphibole asbestos; or
(b) the Minister administering the Occupational Health and Safety Act 1991 or a person authorised by that Minister confirms that he or she has granted permission to import the amphibole asbestos or goods, and the confirmation is produced to a Collector; or
(c) the importation is of hazardous waste as defined in section 4 of the Hazardous Waste (Regulation of Exports and Imports) Act 1989 ;

See we can import it in as hazardous waste, just not as a gasket lol.

From memory, Holdens elizabeth plant is littered with the stuff in roofing materials. Far more likely for dust particles that have fallen onto a commodore seat to affect someone than particles from a gasket in the engine bay.

If a ceiling is sealed up, not craked, falling apart then there is no danger.
The house im in has asbestos fibro in the ceiling and some wall panels.
Its sealed up with paint and not cracked... no danger.
Its when it falls apart that the danger occures.. in the same way a MECHANIC uses a scaper to pull apart a gasket from an exhaust or engine block. The gasket is a DANGER to HIM.

But who cares right? As long as it doesnt affect YOU? Isnt that the society we live in today? I dont care because it doesnt affect me?

[castellan]

Originally Posted by EgoFG

OK, probably the wrong time to ask ..... but,

Has anyone on here purchased a Chinese manufactured car ?
What is your experience/opinion ?

My brother has just bought a great wall 2 door tray back diesel.
No power at all until you hit 1500rpm other than that it's fine for a 4x4.
He is getting it's first service today, it has a oil leak and a noise coming from the drivers front wheel at times.
He is only a tradesman in the building industry, so he could not afford to buy anything other than that type of thing.

I have heard of rust in the wagon type thing they make from new.