Want Proof the Oil Companies Are Doing Us Over? - Page 2

Sourbastard · 31-08-2005, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M14A-Mclaren

Fuel is $1.52.9 in NZ for 91 RON.

What currency do you guys use again? Peso's? Or Rubles?

Heeno · 31-08-2005, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M14A-Mclaren

Fuel is $1.52.9 in NZ for 91 RON.

holy sh!t, with prices like that it's no wonder people are starting to steal fuel

Sourbastard · 31-08-2005, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heeno

holy sh!t, with prices like that it's no wonder people are starting to steal fuel

Its all relative mate. Remember the australian dollar is worth 100,000 New Zealand Rupee.

Shonky · 31-08-2005, 04:57 PM

Time to start riding the sheep to work!

(as opposed to just riding it at home...)

347Stroker · 31-08-2005, 05:11 PM

You get what you pay for, and seeing that we are all guilty of owning cars that arent the most economical available, we just have to cop it in the pocket. I know fuel prices are not going to stop my disire for V8's.

Yes, I agree we are being ripped off, and its all wrong, but what can we do.

It could end up as a political argument....lol

4.9 EF Futura · 31-08-2005, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XA Coupe

Wow, you are a petrol company's wet dream.

Lol, yeah it looks that way huh?

All i see in this thread is an excercise in finger pointing. There are no solutions being put forward - and I think I know why. There are no solutions.

Just touching on chilliman's comment about peak oil. This is very scary. I suggest that anyone with an hour or two to spare have a read of http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/ and I assure you the price of petrol will be the last thing on your mind.

Anyways...

Im not saying OPEC arent in it for themselves. Hell, if that were the case they wouldnt get around openly calling themselves a cartel! But.. global oil production is 84.7milliob b/d and OPEC produces 29.6 million of these. About 30%. Price fluctuations based on geopolitical instability and natural disasters are driven by trade - not supply. OPEC has not cut production since late 2003 when oil was around $30/bbl - i dont see how they can be blamed for current prices when they have consistently increased production for the last 4 years (and in any case, produce only 30% of the world's supply). Hell, the only OPEC country with remaining capacity is Saudi Arabia and even they have a history of overstating their excess capacity.

And just another tidbit of info to throw into the ring. Despite the phrase "record high" being thrown around alot lately, we are still well below the highest point oil reached - when you adjust for inflation. Inflation adjusted, oil was in excess of $100/bbl in 1980!!! At this time, petrol in the US cost in excess of US$3 per gallon (inflation adjusted) compared with about US$2.60 at the moment. An Australian based analysis would be interesting.

I dont think we have it that bad. Yet.

XA-Coupe · 31-08-2005, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

Lol, yeah it looks that way huh?

lol, yes it does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

All i see in this thread is an excercise in finger pointing. There are no solutions being put forward - and I think I know why. There are no solutions.

Just touching on chilliman's comment about peak oil. This is very scary. I suggest that anyone with an hour or two to spare have a read of http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/ and I assure you the price of petrol will be the last thing on your mind.

Anyways...

Im not saying OPEC arent in it for themselves. Hell, if that were the case they wouldnt get around openly calling themselves a cartel! But.. global oil production is 84.7milliob b/d and OPEC produces 29.6 million of these. About 30%. Price fluctuations based on geopolitical instability and natural disasters are driven by trade - not supply. OPEC has not cut production since late 2003 when oil was around $30/bbl - i dont see how they can be blamed for current prices when they have consistently increased production for the last 4 years (and in any case, produce only 30% of the world's supply). Hell, the only OPEC country with remaining capacity is Saudi Arabia and even they have a history of overstating their excess capacity.

And just another tidbit of info to throw into the ring. Despite the phrase "record high" being thrown around alot lately, we are still well below the highest point oil reached - when you adjust for inflation. Inflation adjusted, oil was in excess of $100/bbl in 1980!!! At this time, petrol in the US cost in excess of US$3 per gallon (inflation adjusted) compared with about US$2.60 at the moment. An Australian based analysis would be interesting.

I dont think we have it that bad. Yet.

Adjusting for inflation, our $70 dollar barrel is actually cheaper than back then as we had dollars back then, not south pacific pesos.

The main factor that gets up my nose is we do produce the majority of our own oil but pay world prices. That's gettting raped by our own which is even worse.

4Vman · 31-08-2005, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XA Coupe

lol, yes it does.

Adjusting for inflation, our $70 dollar barrel is actually cheaper than back then as we had dollars back then, not south pacific pesos.

The main factor that gets up my nose is we do produce the majority of our own oil but pay world prices. That's gettting raped by our own which is even worse.

Oil prices are the ultimate form of a world wide monopoly.
I really wonder what petrol would cost if we could remove parity pricing?
Assuming it would be cheaper that means the oil companies in Australia are "forced" to make greater profits as a result? its crazy.

RegSpec · 31-08-2005, 05:40 PM

Double dipping by the government doesnt help the cause either,
we cop a federal tax, a state tax and just for good measure they stick it into us for the GST as well!!!
If it wasnt for taxes, we would be paying roughly 80c a litre.

4Vman · 31-08-2005, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redebxr8

Double dipping by the government doesnt help the cause either,
we cop a federal tax, a state tax and just for good measure they stick it into us for the GST as well!!!
If it wasnt for taxes, we would be paying roughly 80c a litre.

The only problem with that is they'd need to raise the revenue some other way, the net result in your wallet would still be the same at the end of the week, they'd just tax you more in some other area.

4.9 EF Futura · 31-08-2005, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XA Coupe

The main factor that gets up my nose is we do produce the majority of our own oil but pay world prices. That's gettting raped by our own which is even worse.

It's twisted, yes - but as noted before, they're not going to sell it to us for $50 a barrel if the chinese, indians and americans are willing to pay $70.

They'd sell it to them and then we'd have to go out and pay $70/bbl to the saudis anyway.

Damn good article from the Age:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/nation...538971029.html

In particular, have a read of the last 3rd.

Black XR6 · 31-08-2005, 06:24 PM

Quote:

How's US$150/barrel by 2010 sound or US$350/barrel by 2015!

So where do I buy afew hundred of these barrels of oil for future sale on the world market?

**Falcon Coupe** · 31-08-2005, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

The only problem with that is they'd need to raise the revenue some other way, the net result in your wallet would still be the same at the end of the week, they'd just tax you more in some other area.

Not true, the price of petrol is an unexpected windfall for the government, trouble is, they will get used to it quickly and start to rely on it, the way things are going i think the first Party to reduce and cap excise or remove GST will win the next election.

deesun · 31-08-2005, 07:09 PM

Not sure how long ago you went to school XA COUPE but I'll bet we weren't paying as much tax/excise back then.Currently about half the price is tax As for price differentials between city and country I live as equidistant from two capitol cities one with lots of state tax and one without and just 1 and a bit tanks of fuel for most cars. During the "normal" periods we are paying a minimum 10cpl more than city sometimes up to 25cpl higher than QLD.. In an area of just 70k people and over 30 servos inc small 2 bowser places that equates to only around 2000 customers per servo.City places would laugh at this where there customer base would be somewhere near 100k. Thats throughput meaning cheaper fuel,less freight means cheaper fuel. For as long as I can remember driving,30 yrs,there has always been the little place just out of town with a cheaper price,but would you buy your fuel there? Just because it has a Shell/BP/Caltex sign doesn't mean it comes from there.These smaller operators also get subsidies from the fuel companies to survive but as roads get better and distances "shorter" there isn't the need for them so they go by the wayside. There will always be discrepancies in the cost of fuel and nothing will stop that but its no different to a packet of biscuits which are a different price in nearly every Coles/Woolies/Action/IGA/Aldi. We would be better off if we ate as many biscuits as we use litres of fuel cos we would be so fat then we couldn't get into our car and use all that expensive fuel.

:hihi:

GTP 320 · 31-08-2005, 07:44 PM

Why is it then that the American fuel is much cheaper than ours,what has happened to the oil parity then.
I'd like to know?
Cheers John

outback_ute · 31-08-2005, 07:57 PM

deesun, I know what you are talking about on fuel in rural areas, I grew up in a small town where the petrol was normally 10c above city prices. I was up there on the weekend and it was 2c cheaper! Now I'm sure the petrol stations were not having Closing Down sales so I conclude the price in the city is higher than it "should" be.

MAD · 31-08-2005, 08:04 PM

I cant comment on anything as I really dont know much about economic stuff and really prefer to keep it that way... but I did find this article (a bit old) which is quite an interesting read.

http://www.aip.com.au/pricing/crude.htm

XplosiveR6 · 31-08-2005, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTP 320

Why is it then that the American fuel is much cheaper than ours,what has happened to the oil parity then.
I'd like to know?
Cheers John

cos they dont tax it very much at all

Psycho Chicken · 31-08-2005, 08:14 PM

I'm not overly fussed by it all.

Prices are cheaper then they were back in the early 80's, if people can get through that I can't see what the problem now is. If I was worried about economy (and no pulse) I'd be driving a Prius.

The world is too unstable to predict where we will be in 2 years, let alone 10. Who would of picked this 3 years ago? The middle east is a mess and it doesn't show any signs of sorting itself out, the US economy is a joke and Katrina doesn't seem to have done any good in that reguard. Believe it or not, all empires fall, when America falls oil demand is going to drop way off. Not saying it's going to happen tomorrow, but it will happen one day. Iraq will stablise one day and oil will be flowing. There's too many factors to make judgements.

Of course, all that doesn't excuse oil companies and the government from raping us dry. Tax on a tax? Please....

deesun · 31-08-2005, 08:15 PM

Again economies of scale come into play here. The difference in taxes,US dollar we only hear about the cheapest prices,are we comparing like Octane ratings. I've seen proper comparisons which take into account all these things and we aren't as badly off as we think,but still a way behind the states which would probably be economies of scale.

CSV_LS1 · 31-08-2005, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

...the first Party to reduce and cap excise or remove GST will win the next election.

Or the first to promise to.

:

seano14 · 31-08-2005, 08:36 PM

i basically skimmed through this thread and i didnt see it mentioned, however last i heard roughly 45% of the bowser cost was actual total fuel cost, with the government's cut of the action equating to roughly the same amount and something like 2% ontop for the actual petrol stations earnings.

though i have no doubt the stations can mark up their price a bit more depending on how much the one down the road is charging.

i filled up today at 116c for vortex, now costs me about $100 flat per tank. with record budgetry money the government has been getting i would like to think they could reduce their cut of the action and give us a bit of a break.

M14A-Mclaren · 31-08-2005, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sourbastard

Its all relative mate. Remember the australian dollar is worth 100,000 New Zealand Rupee.

$1.53 New Zealand dollars is $1.41 Australian Dollars

Quote:

Originally Posted by Young'un

Time to start riding the sheep to work!

(as opposed to just riding it at home...)

:hihi:

_

**Bundy** · 31-08-2005, 08:47 PM

yeah I'm with XA coupe on this one but I believe that america is much more to bame then china or inda, they use more than they can produce and so rely heavily on opec to meet there demands in turn they pay the $$ for it, (we do too but our $ doesn't stack up to theirs) because we're allies we are in opec too, (how would it look if we could be getting oil cheaper then them). If they fell out with opec, poor little aussie land could supply us and them with enough oil and all of a sudden no more super power US of A.
That would leave us very vounerable indeed.
Food for thought
Or as bushy would have us believe Food for oil.
Oh and there is also a third oil deposit in Aust called the east timor sea.

T_Terror · 31-08-2005, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

Lol, yeah it looks that way huh?

All i see in this thread is an excercise in finger pointing. There are no solutions being put forward - and I think I know why. There are no solutions.

Just touching on chilliman's comment about peak oil. This is very scary. I suggest that anyone with an hour or two to spare have a read of http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/ and I assure you the price of petrol will be the last thing on your mind.

Thats some damn scary sh*te. Cant say im totally convinced as im a sceptic but still just the idea brings shivers.

Casper · 31-08-2005, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

It's twisted, yes - but as noted before, they're not going to sell it to us for $50 a barrel if the chinese, indians and americans are willing to pay $70.

They'd sell it to them and then we'd have to go out and pay $70/bbl to the saudis anyway.

Damn good article from the Age:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/nation...538971029.html

In particular, have a read of the last 3rd.

Scary (but reasonalby feasable) stuff. Could get down to the "we have it and you dont" senario where oil goes off the world market an those that have it, keep it. Donst look good for the likes of China and India who dont have much of their own oil. Aust, US and Russia may be ok for a while if we protect or own.

Lets just hope that Russia, the one late truely BIG oil country that hasnt been tapped opens its eyes and starts getting its act together. If they start to really produce we might survive long enough to find an alternative.

Canola oil anyone???

SpoolMan · 31-08-2005, 09:18 PM

Once all the oil is gone, Max will have to take over all the hi-ways.

:

niko · 31-08-2005, 09:31 PM

ye but u cant really say, government please stop collecting your excise. its a major source of income for this country, and its budgeted for in the year bfor. how well they stik to there budget is a different story but that money is used in australia atleast, to pay for gov employees and welfare, and hopefully alot of infrastructure upgrades from the amount of big boy rigs that drive this country.

**Bundy** · 31-08-2005, 10:06 PM

after reading this article http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/
down the bottom on page 2 I found this on an alternative fuels

"First, there is the problem of production costs. According to a recent article in Fortune Magazine, a barrel of oil produced via the thermal depolymerization process costs $80 to produce as of January 2005. To put that figure in perspective, consider the fact that oil pulled out of the ground in Saudi Arabia costs less than $2.50 per barrel, while oil pulled out of the ground in Iraq costs only $1.00 per barrel.

This means that with spot oil prices in the $50/barrel range, a barrel of oil produced via thermal depolymerization in January 2005 would have to sell for between $1,600-$4,000 per barrel to have a return on investment comparable to oil produced from Saudi Arabia or Iraq.

Oil prices of $1,600-$4,000 per barrel would put gas prices at roughly $80-$200 per gallon."

buy for $2.50 a barrel refine and sell for $70 ish mmmmmm

and Casper going by that report Russia peaked in 1987

also check out the last 1/4 of page 2
"Do World Governments Have Plans to Deal With This?"
very intresting reading.

Mondie · 31-08-2005, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

Australia

Oil - Production: 537,500 barrels/day

Oil - Consumption: 796,500 barrels/day

Oil - Exports: 523,400 barrels/day

Oil - Imports: 530,800 barrels/day

Oil - Proved Reserves: 3.664 billion barrels

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/as.html

Seems pretty stupid.. we produce 537,500 per day, then export 523,400 of them? I don't understand.. why not use it here.. then we can import less.. save money?

Steffo,

The reason for this is simple. Oil is graded to API gravity ie. its thickness and composition varies over different fields, not all of it is suited for refining to petrol, some of it is better for lubrcants or even plastic manufacture. Hence we export what isnt suitable and import what is for petrol.

OPEC control around 23% of world Oil production so you cannot say they control the price as it stands now. Prior to this current run on the price they did have some control as they controlled the excess supply in effect but events such as Katrina in the GOM demonstrate how volatile the supply/demand equation has become.

Of course a majority of Australias Oil is produced by Internationally based companies who invest here for a decent ROI. If the price here was artifically adjusted they would invest elsehwere. We would import more oil and hence have a huge current account deficit.

The days of US$30 oil will NEVER be seen again IMO.