Alright AFF, lets lower the road toll...: Solutions

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by 04redxr8

So that immediately renders you immune from any laws that would suspend your license? Huh?

I run my own business, employ 3-4 people and rely on my car and license to oversee my business. Guess what happens if I do the wrong thing.

DRIVING IS A PRIVELEDGE. It can be revoked.

Did I say that? I said its more than a priviledge out here, we need our cars to get to work, no car means no transport, I live 50km from work (nothing compared to others), I'm not exactly going to walk there or go on push bike, theres no bus stop or train station here, closest train station is 27km away.

Would you rather everyone who loses their license who loses their job because of it to join the line at Centrelink? So you can pay for their mortgage, bills, food?

[fordv8!]

all drivers must complete driver training on the track with suitable drivers ie learn how to control a car if you loose control etc gov subsidised
our kids need to be in newer safer cars how that is achieved i dont know
and build "race tracks" that for a fee you can safely as possible go and 'hoon' around we have all done or do it, but it's way to dangerous on the roads
driving should become a subject at school in year 8 start introducing the kids to the danger and enjoyment you can get out of driving at an earlier age

[flappist]

Originally Posted by 04redxr8

So that immediately renders you immune from any laws that would suspend your license? Huh?

I run my own business, employ 3-4 people and rely on my car and license to oversee my business. Guess what happens if I do the wrong thing.

DRIVING IS A PRIVELEDGE. It can be revoked.

So, can you name ANYTHING in Australia that is not a privilege?

And what would happen if you did something will, on most occasions, be completely different to what happens to others.

Magistrates, for the most part, are made quite aware of circumstances and act accordingly.

[bobthebilda]

The governments spend millions of dollars and millions of man hours collectin data each year as to what the cause of accidents are. There may be a small percentage that they cant get the true answer to, but most times they have a fair idea as to what the cause is.

The biggest problem would be just stupidity. You cant legislate against stupidity, and unfortunately, people only realise the consequence of that stupidity at the *** end of an accident. In fact I am pretty sure that if the police were able interview all the people who have died as a result of their stupidity, if they knew it was going to lead to death, then a very large percentage would say no, they didnt want to die.

Unfortunately, a lot of innocent people get also get hurt or die as a result of other peoples stupidity, but I think in general we must accept

1) If people do something stupid (and they survive) that causes someone elses death or injury by a motor car, then they should be treated as they intended to do the harm, and not be able to say it was an accident.

2) if the stupid person dies as a result of their actions, then we must all accept that its just darwinism at work. Jumping into a car shouldnt over ride the ingrained desire to survive. If humans think they decrease murder rates and bank robberies by locking criminals up, then surely must also advertise and celebrate when there are single vehicle accidents that are the result of stupidity and casue the death of the driver.

[04redxr8]

What is the problem with mandatory driver training? As soon as it is suggested, everybody arcs up as though it is the end of driving as we know it.

Do you not know how to drive? Are you afraid you may fail?

I constantaly say it should be requirement before we are allowed to drive. Take a drive around Brisbane sometime. The number of motorists who cant control a car, cant see buses, dont know how to indicate, cannot merge at the same speed as flowing traffic, etc, etc. These are things I see continually. 5 car pile ups on straight motorways with no visibility issues or hazards.

Clearly there are many people who should never be allowed to drive a motor vehicle, both for their protection and our own.

And @ Flappy, we are running out of priviledges at a rapid rate. FFS people cant even light up a smoke in the middle of Queen St Mall anymore.

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by Ben73

Ahahahha 26. You have to be joking. I bet you got your license when you were 16 and now your a grumpy old man you don't want young people to drive.

No, I am just someone who survived the onslaught of road deaths in the 70's, more by good luck, than by good managment.

No, I am just a person who 13 years as an emergency service volunteer who used to respond to road accidents at all hours of day and night to extract people from smashed up motor vehicles, maybe you need to go a lift a dead body out of a car to get a check on reality.

No, I am just a bloke who has dedicated his life to driver training and road safety full time since 1987, probably before you were born.

And for the record I got my car drivers licence when I turned 18 anbd have never lost if for being a ******. I have had no traffic infrigements for so long I can't remember, and that is despite periods of full time employment as a truck driver, and traveling in excess of 40,000 per year as a driver trainer.

When you get to my age (53), give me a call and we will compare notes.

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by fordv8!

all drivers must complete driver training on the track with suitable drivers ie learn how to control a car if you loose control etc gov subsidised
our kids need to be in newer safer cars how that is achieved i dont know
and build "race tracks" that for a fee you can safely as possible go and 'hoon' around we have all done or do it, but it's way to dangerous on the roads
driving should become a subject at school in year 8 start introducing the kids to the danger and enjoyment you can get out of driving at an earlier age

People need to learn how to interact with other traffic, people need to learn to not be too impatient, and people need to learn the difference between capabilites and ambitions.

Originally Posted by 04redxr8

What is the problem with mandatory driver training? As soon as it is suggested, everybody arcs up as though it is the end of driving as we know it.

I have worked as a full time driver trainer since 1987, with periods of other stuff, but pretty much since then, pro-active driver training works, I have seen the evidence of it, but the old addage comes in here, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't force them to drink".

People have to have a need to drive appropriately, humans are born risk takers, and you are NEVER going to get rid of the risk taking behaviour, hell I am 53 and regularly compete in circuit racing. Humans risk taking behaviour starts to decrease at about the age of 25, hence my earlier comment on licencing at 26.

[Ausfire]

Very good topic mate, there are so many things that need to be looked at here, so many good ideas by all AFF members. One poster has hit a few items on the head, as below,

Posted byGTP006
The instructing driver must be over 25yo and have passed a recertification within the past 3yrs;
0% Drug & Alcohol;
Bi-annual RWC;
Re-apply for your drivers licence every 5 years;
Increased HWY speed limits;
Standardise speed limits/zones - 40/60/80/100/130 (remove 50/70/90/110);
Introduce 3 day/2 week suspensions for midless acts of stupidity, things like minor school zone speeding, burnouts, unsafe load, bad defect, doing makeup etc;
Change from a coin operated approach to a life saving approach;

The instructor needs to checked prior to teaching our kids bad habits, dont know how many times i have seen mums and dads with the kid learner, doing all the wrong things, sitting in right lanes, failing to indicate, speeding??, you all have seen this. Boggles the mind that these kids then get passed by RTA instructors??

Dont drink and drive, SIMPLE!!,

RWC , just a cash grab, lived in Queensland for 9 years , sure seen heaps of **** boxes on roads but does it make a difference??

Reapply for licence, mmm, one part of me says no but the other says yes.

Love the standard speed zones, Learners and P platers should be doing same speed, I travel the highway every week and you catch L platers real quick sitting on 110. Came back from central coast to newy yesterday and sons girlfriend (P Plater) following, I could not stay on 100 as i started to feel tired, clicked the cruise up to to 118, more alert, mainly looking for coppers.lol. Thats another thing, put more coppers on the road, it slows us down, not good for those with the new Gt's and GS's though, lol.

Did a trip in NT from Darwin to Kakadu, speed limit 130 km/h on a road far less capable than the F3, M5 etc and found it heaps better, more concentrated, quicker ( obviously), just makes sense, look at autobahn's.

That piece Skaiffy did on 60 mins was right on the money, give kids safer cars, teach them to drive properly .
Whole system needs an overhauled I think, fines, demerits, roads, etc, these bean heads need to look to the future now, not ten years down the track.

Speed doesn't kill, its not learning how to control it that does.

Ok off me soap box.

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by Big Trev

No, I am just someone who survived the onslaught of road deaths in the 70's, more by good luck, than by good managment.

No, I am just a person who 13 years as an emergency service volunteer who used to respond to road accidents at all hours of day and night to extract people from smashed up motor vehicles, maybe you need to go a lift a dead body out of a car to get a check on reality.

No, I am just a bloke who has dedicated his life to driver training and road safety full time since 1987, probably before you were born.

And for the record I got my car drivers licence when I turned 18 anbd have never lost if for being a ******. I have had no traffic infrigements for so long I can't remember, and that is despite periods of full time employment as a truck driver, and traveling in excess of 40,000 per year as a driver trainer.

When you get to my age (53), give me a call and we will compare notes.

You cannot actually believe changing the driving age to 26 would be a good idea.
Your idea of "some young people suck at driving, lets ban them all for doing it" is ridiculous.

Since I was 18 I have had a job that relies on driving. So what would I be doing now if I wasn't allowed to drive? Sitting around for a few years until I am 26 so I can do my job again?
Unemployment would sky rocket with young people being unable to drive as apart of their jobs. I have mates who never got their license and they have trouble finding jobs because they are unable to get to and from the job everyday, or the actual job requires them to drive.

BTW I also driving over 40,000Kms a year, and have never once got a fine for anything at all.

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by Ben73

You cannot actually believe changing the driving age to 26 would be a good idea.
Your idea of "some young people suck at driving, lets ban them all for doing it" is ridiculous.

Since I was 18 I have had a job that relies on driving. So what would I be doing now if I wasn't allowed to drive? Sitting around for a few years until I am 26 so I can do my job again?
Unemployment would sky rocket with young people being unable to drive as apart of their jobs. I have mates who never got their license and they have trouble finding jobs because they are unable to get to and from the job everyday, or the actual job requires them to drive.

BTW I also driving over 40,000Kms a year, and have never once got a fine for anything at all.

IF it were to happen, then life/jobs would adjust, there was a life going on before cars and before mobile phones - BELIEVE IT OR NOT!!!

Personally I couldn't give a fat rats clacker about you or your circumstances, the originator asked for ideas that "MUST be realistic and achievable by our government" and mine are. The experts are now talking about risk taking behaviour and age, I have been talking about it for over 15 years.

And don't loose sight of the fact that the originator of this thread asked for ideas, he also went to say that that this is a ideas thread, not discussion:

Originally Posted by XCwillo

I always see members from this forums (including myself) hating on it and coming up with better solutions with much more logic, and how the government is flawed in its (stupid) plans.
So i thought why not hold a poll, that has REALISTIC ideas of how better train young drivers ect, and ultimately lower the road toll

First step: The solutions, I'll post up a few to start off, then you guys do the same, whether it be building on the last one, or a completely new one
Remember
They MUST be realistic and achievable by our government

This is strictly the Ideas thread
All discussion relating Ideas needs to be posted in the Discussion thread

I have selectively edited the original post.

[kezzer]

Originally Posted by Big Trev

IF it were to happen, then life/jobs would adjust, there was a life going on before cars and before mobile phones - BELIEVE IT OR NOT!!!

Adjust? Our economy would be close to ********. We are already struggling to be competitive and without a decent public transport system that means a few million more to add to the unemployment numbers as well as the centerlink cues. If I didn't have my car I would be out of a job. Instead of making 30+ per hour and paying off my mortgage, I'd be buying porno's with ur tax money.

[XCXDBABF]

Could a system similar to HECS for university studies work for helping people pay for advanced driving courses as part of the requirements for getting a driver's license? Get a discount if you pay upfront, or pay it off over time as small percentage of your taxable income if you defer payment, which would incur interest at either CPI or the reserve bank interest rate.

[TheSneakiness]

MAKE overseas visitors (aliens) get their Australian license before starting work on their appropriate VISA.

Fit bombs to taxis who purposefully sit under the speed limit that is armed when the car starts and speed sensitive, sit under that limit for too long and BOOOOOOM!!! (extreme yes, but something needs to be done, maybe yearly practical driving tests)

More police prescence on the road, but in marked cars, not unmarked. I wish I could legally pull over stupid people driving on the Gold Coast cause I would've retired 100 times over.

Give people electric shocks for staring at the speedo for too long.

[MAD]

I think a big part of the issue is to understand the road toll properly. It's not just the death toll, that we get shown at any opportunity that seems to suit the media/police, it also includes upward of 30,000 other people that are injured in car accidents.
The numbers of the 'death toll' seems small in comparison to our population, but the total toll shows a different picture.
When you are talking percentages of people killed in road accidents, it is very much in the realm of diminishing returns for anything that is put in place (cameras, training, etc)
I think this needs to be brought to the publics attention and maybe the gov will begin to look at different methods because they are now 'treating' a larger chunk of our population.

Here is a breakdown of the death toll over the last few years. Unfortunately the 'serious injury' toll is not working at the moment.
http://www.tacsafety.com.au/jsp/stat...erID=1&navID=1


I for one think a huge issue is the rush of society these days. It amazes me how many loopy skid marks I see on our freshly laid roads that clearly point to someone changing lanes quickly and without looking and giving themselves a 'pit manoeuvre'

The anger that ensues when that bastard that is only one length behind the car in front of him wont drop back to let you across so you can turn right because you were sitting in the left lane letting the nuffies go past.

The only banner ad I've seen from the TAC that I though actually might help was the one that says "slowing down wont kill you". It's simple, it's true and it's a good message of relaxation. 'Speed kills' is ignored by everyone these days because we all know that 5kmh over, god forbid, 10kmh over doesn't automatically result in death of children and puppies.


Anyway I'm ranting, so I'll just leave this with my recommendation of tougher penalties for tailgating, encouragement of courteous behaviour and more police on the roads.

[XCwillo]

Originally Posted by MAD

The only banner ad I've seen from the TAC that I though actually might help was the one that says "slowing down wont kill you". It's simple, it's true and it's a good message of relaxation. 'Speed kills' is ignored by everyone these days because we all know that 5kmh over, god forbid, 10kmh over doesn't automatically result in death of children and puppies.

+1

Very good point

[GreenR]

Originally Posted by Rapid_Axe

MAKE overseas visitors (aliens) get their Australian license before starting work on their appropriate VISA.

Agreed, Taxi drivers in Vic. (which we all know mostly are people from one particular country ) are by far the worst. I'd be more afraid and annoyed at their driving manners than any P plater. Yet they come over here and are permitted to start driving from day one. That is not ensuring safety on our roads.

[pottery beige]

bring back the HT 186, three on the tree + bent tailshaft.... no power and any speed approaching 75kmh and the shakes cut in...... lives saved problem solvered.......

[04redxr8]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

bring back the HT 186, three on the tree + bent tailshaft.... no power and any speed approaching 75kmh and the shakes cut in...... lives saved problem solvered.......

I had an HZ with that option.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

bring back the HT 186, three on the tree + bent tailshaft.... no power and any speed approaching 75kmh and the shakes cut in...... lives saved problem solvered.......

Oh yeh, my first car was a HK 161 with 3 on the tree crash box.

I only dreamed about those high powered 186s with syncro on first.....

[dannyhilton]

Originally Posted by MAD

The only banner ad I've seen from the TAC that I though actually might help was the one that says "slowing down wont kill you". It's simple, it's true and it's a good message of relaxation. 'Speed kills' is ignored by everyone these days because we all know that 5kmh over, god forbid, 10kmh over doesn't automatically result in death of children and puppies.

+2. We're all becoming desensitised so the old 'Speed Kills' signs are almost irrelevant these days. Never seen a sign like that, but it actually makes you think, very smart.

[pulpist]

This afternoon in Adelaide.



Another P plater.

Police say speed was a contributing factor to the two fatals

Ya think?!?!?

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by flappist

Oh yeh, my first car was a HK 161 with 3 on the tree crash box.

I only dreamed about those high powered 186s with syncro on first.....

keeeeeeeerunch...... in she goes.....

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by Big Trev

IF it were to happen, then life/jobs would adjust, there was a life going on before cars and before mobile phones - BELIEVE IT OR NOT!!!

Personally I couldn't give a fat rats clacker about you or your circumstances, the originator asked for ideas that "MUST be realistic and achievable by our government" and mine are. The experts are now talking about risk taking behaviour and age, I have been talking about it for over 15 years.

And don't loose sight of the fact that the originator of this thread asked for ideas, he also went to say that that this is a ideas thread, not discussion:I have selectively edited the original post.

Well obviously you don't care about me or anyone else. That's one of the main problems on the roads everyone is always about themselves. I bet your the type of person who does 30 in a 60 zone because you are too busy looking for an adress or at the sight. I bet you take up 2 lanes when turning left in your car because you don't care if you delay people people behind you.

At my work there is about 100 people who rely on their license for work. About 30 of those people are under 26. We would be all laid off if we couldn't drive. That's 30 more people on centrelink living on your tax. That's just 1 small company.

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by pulpist

This afternoon in Adelaide.

Another P plater.

Police say speed was a contributing factor to the two fatals

Ya think?!?!?

Problem solved. This person wont be out doing anything stupid anymore, and everybody now has far less chance of being crashed into by him. The experts can only tinker with darwinism, fortunately it always rises above everything else.

[BENT_8]

Unfortunately he took his mate with him.

It was only a matter of time, there is i sudden camber increase which unloads the right front wheel half way round that bend and then it drops away, even at 60 it and has caught me out a few times when wet.

No excuse though, that much damage wont happen at 60!

Condoences to the families...

[XCwillo]

That picture just made me realize something

Use some other means of holding powerlines up (we have touch screen phones that can do anything, you cant tell me we dont have some better way then tree trunks to hold up power lines)
Because I swear 80% are into powerpoles, on the driver/passenger side door :\
If they weren't there, the car would happily slide around and roll or something
The cost of the damage plus the frightening experience alone would scare the driver away from any speed in the future.

[BENT_8]

It was a tree, a big one.

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by XCwillo

That picture just made me realize something

Use some other means of holding powerlines up (we have touch screen phones that can do anything, you cant tell me we dont have some better way then tree trunks to hold up power lines)
Because I swear 80% are into powerpoles, on the driver/passenger side door :\
If they weren't there, the car would happily slide around and roll or something
The cost of the damage plus the frightening experience alone would scare the driver away from any speed in the future.

That's true. All new areas should have underground power cables. Then again ten years ago someone wrapped a car around a powerpole out front of my mares house. If the pole wasn't there they would of ended up in my mates front yard. Maybe even his house. What type of car was that in the picture?

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by pulpist

This afternoon in Adelaide.



Another P plater.

Police say speed was a contributing factor to the two fatals

Ya think?!?!?

Not much left of that JZA80 Supra, lol.

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by Ben73

Well obviously you don't care about me or anyone else. That's one of the main problems on the roads everyone is always about themselves. I bet your the type of person who does 30 in a 60 zone because you are too busy looking for an adress or at the sight. I bet you take up 2 lanes when turning left in your car because you don't care if you delay people people behind you.

At my work there is about 100 people who rely on their license for work. About 30 of those people are under 26. We would be all laid off if we couldn't drive. That's 30 more people on centrelink living on your tax. That's just 1 small company.

Did you read anything else about me, you are so quick to get into the personal attacks that you missed reading.

Here you are again, I will type it slowly because you obviously need all the help you can get.

30 years in the transport and related industries, including time driving B-Doubles and semi-trailers for a living.

Over 20 years as a professional driver trainer, not a learn to drive trainer, but an advanced driver trainer, specialising in heavy vehicles, but also had a stint training emergency service drivers, including Ambulance and SES, and also training high performace driving skills. Just imagine if you can a semi-trailer on a 4 acre skid pan, if you want to see the video, that can be arranged, filmed by one of Ch 9's 'Today's' predecessors.

I own and drive a race car

As previously stated, 13 years pulling mostly dead bodies from motor vehicle accidents (MVA's) as an emergency service volunteer.

And where do you pull all you life experiences from?