Not good news for the Australian automotive industry

[red_hotxr6]

Well according to the news it has to do with the price of petrol.Ford are going to cut back on the sedans and territory vehicles by 20% and are asking for voluntary redundancies. Good grief.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by robjh80

But that's just the issue isn't it, we pay 45k for a standard family sedan, aka Commi or Falcon with suspect quality etc whereas the standard family sedan in Europe is the very same 150k one that "Joe Public" cannot possibly afford here, compare the 2.....Falcon/Commi vs Merc/BMW.....it's a tough one.

Whens the last time you been to Europe? You think they drive large 6cyl family sedans? Medium size car for most of em. Paying $2/lt (or more) is standard up there.

I'm quite happy with a car that I can stretch my legs in. Where everyone is comfortable in it for hours and an engine that has power when required. I won't give up my Falcon I love the thing to death, as it's been one fantastic car to drive and tough as. If I had to downgrade to a POS small car (unless it's a mini) I wouldn't be a happy man. Petrol isn't that expensive, and the new 6cyl cars are quite fuel efficient since they're pulling 1800kg. But the torque and power that come from the Aussie 6 is something fantastic.

[Mutley]

Originally Posted by Neeek

This isn't much of a surprise, is it? If Ford, Holden or indeed any manufacturer keeps chruning out cars with large engines, it's no wonder they're not going to get loads of sales. Blindingly obvious, really.

I suspect that when the VE was in development, petrol prices weren't predicted to skyrocket the way they have. And at that stage, it was probably too late to make any changes to the car - they'd passed the point of no return after investing so much money... this would've been quite a few years ago now.

I think this is one of the many reasons Ford and GMH are in so much trouble - they're greedy, they want a hugely impressive car to shout about (and beat the rivals) and then they stare at their shoes when it doesn't sell because of factors beyond their control, such as the high cost of crude. Poor planning and a lack of insight. Take a look at the Japanese manufacturers for lessons in how to make the business profitable - I don't think any of them are in the red because they build cars that the motoring public actually want.

We just downgraded our car to a smaller one, for a varity of reasons, not all of which are linked to the price at the bowser. We could've got ourselves a BA Falcon XT or something equally big, but instead chose a little Mazda with a small engine that's well built, well equipped and good fun to drive. It does what the Falcon/Commodore would do, apart from towing 2-tons, and it will cost us less long-term. Bit of a no-brainer, really.

And my household isn't unique... the sooner Ford/GMH start listening to what people want, the more profitable they'll become and as a result we'll get the cars we actually need to buy, rather than the ones we just want.

The biggest cost for new cars is depreciation, something imported cars are not immune from. You mention fuel. So what are the sums:

Your import probably achieves 8.5lt / 100kms
A BF falcon achieves 10.5lt / 100kms
The average kms per year for each family is 15,000
Therefore the fuel savings @ 1.30c per lt is $390.00 per year.

Our family is also doing the sums. So what does the BA / BF offer for $390.00 per year? For us:
extra safety
more room
more power
can tow a trailer
can take the kids friends with us in comfort
easier to get parts for

A no brainer really...

[chich]

Originally Posted by Ringo

PS used to be a BMW mechanic and I can tell you that plenty of stuff goes wrong with them as well.

Every manufacturer has their own unique problems. There was a time when hundreds of BMW 6 cylinders had leaking headgaskets in late 90's. Engine oil sludging was another issue. Its the manufactures tolence level of these issues before they decide its an issue that must be addressed.

It is also the dealers attitude to the product, to take on driver issues and solve them and take pride in the work they do....I think it the biggest opportunity for improvement for both Ford and Holden - their dealers present a real weakness

Probably the most intelligent reponse i've read in this thread to date.

As i originally said in my initial post: there are 4 main areas where Aussies cars fall over - quality, reliability, resale and dealer support.

[Mutley]

Originally Posted by chich

Probably the most intelligent reponse i've read in this thread to date.

As i originally said in my initial post: there are 4 main areas where Aussies cars fall over - quality, reliability, resale and dealer support.

Is there a car manufactured today that doesn't have issues related to quality, reliability, resale and dealer support? I don't understand your point? Are you saying that our manufacturers are the only ones that have these issues or are we comparitively worse.

[chich]

The following threads are testament to the alleged 'quality' of the Ford product. Didn't have to look to long...


http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=68620

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=51860

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=67341

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=67118

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=69782

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=67663

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=65959

[chich]

Originally Posted by Mutley

Is there a car manufactured today that doesn't have issues related to quality, reliability, resale and dealer support? I don't understand your point?

In regards to quality and dealer support the point i'm trying to make is that people eventually loose not only their patience but also confidence in the product.

A perfect example.. FalconFreak's BA XT V8 went in for its 40,000km service and it came back from the dealership with 6 pages worth of faults ranging from wrapped rotors (3rd time), driveline shunt (2nd time), split PCV hose, leaky diff, loose handbrake cable, cracked shifter boot and a cracked radiator just to name a few. If i remember correctly the first time the dealership was asked to inspect the shunt they commented that 'it was within spec'. If this is deemed to be a 'quality' product as some of you suggest then i really don't want to know what your definition is a POS is..

Additionally, the example i gave above is not an isolated incident either.

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by chich

The following threads are testament to the alleged 'quality' of the Ford product. Didn't have to look to long...


http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=68620

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=51860

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=67341

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=67118

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=69782

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=67663

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=65959

Name the car and I could show you just as many links in regard to its 'quality'

[Mutley]

Originally Posted by chich

The following threads are testament to the alleged 'quality' of the Ford product. Didn't have to look to long...


http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=68620

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=51860

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=67341

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=67118


http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=69782

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=67663

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=65959

Quality is a relative judgement. On this forum, you and I have access to issues experienced by Ford owners. Unfortunately we don't have this same access to other manufacturers problems on this scale.

My only comparisons outside this forum are those I have personally been made aware of.

I believe to support your argument, you need to compare the relative cost of warranty expense of different manufacturers cars, not just 'cut and paste' shopping lists

[Neeek]

Originally Posted by aualright

Try putting 2 kids in the back seat safely (that is...plenty of room between the front and back seats), then fitting in all the prams, etc in the boot of your Mazda.

Try overtaking safely with such a load in the Mazda when going up a hill on the F2 from Sydney to Newcastle. Let's hope the dollars you are saving stack up becasue your engine torque won't.

What I need to buy is certainly different from you - maybe being a father of 2 I'm in the minority.

Whilst I'm in a family of only two, kids are on the agenda. The Mazda will serve us well (touch wood!) for the next five or six years. If we had two kids, they could fit in the back easily... I'm 6'4" and with the front seat all the way back my wife can sit behind me with her knees only just hitting the front seat. It's only a 323, but there's more than enough room in the back. The boot will also swallow 2 prams and a week's shopping, no problem. Might do my back in leaning in to get it all out, but that's why the wife wants a 4x4... not a chance, my dear..

As for power, provided the car's not fully laden with adults, it has a decent turn of speed too. It might be small, but it's a 1.8 and MUCH faster than the 2.3 litre Saab it's replacing.

I guess it's all relative - for us, the Mazda represents a HUGE leap forward in almost every aspect over the Saab.

It'll serve us very well, and given that we were in the market for a used car costing between $15k and $20k, that puts us slap bang in the middle of Falcon/Commodore territory (no pun intended - they are nice, those Territorys..!). There are many reasons why we didn't choose one, and I think that Australia in general is making similar decisions - that's why full-size cars don't sell as well as they used to.

[Falcon Freak]

Originally Posted by chich

The following threads are testament to the alleged 'quality' of the Ford product. Didn't have to look to long...


http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=68620

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=51860

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=67341

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=67118

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=69782

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=67663

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=65959

I honestly do not know why you waste your time on this forum when you clearly detest Australian made cars. As I said before, sell your EL Falcon and go buy a better made car.

FF

[Bud Bud]

[QUOTE=Neeek]Whilst I'm in a family of only two, kids are on the agenda. The Mazda will serve us well (touch wood!) for the next five or six years. If we had two kids, they could fit in the back easily...QUOTE]

Drive and look after it like it was designed to be and it will easily do what you want it to do. Mazda are a very good product these days and have emerged well from some of the heavy boat designs (626 and 929L) of the 80's that they served up then.

Mazda has definitely arrived into this century with a good quality and value for dollar car in much the same way Honda and Subaru did a decade or so before, with out much of the boringness that is (perhaps unfairly) associated with Toyota.

The cheap and reliable 80's Laser was a massive hit for Ford though.

[colossus]

Originally Posted by Mutley

The biggest cost for new cars is depreciation, something imported cars are not immune from. You mention fuel. So what are the sums:

Your import probably achieves 8.5lt / 100kms
A BF falcon achieves 10.5lt / 100kms
The average kms per year for each family is 15,000
Therefore the fuel savings @ 1.30c per lt is $390.00 per year.

Our family is also doing the sums. So what does the BA / BF offer for $390.00 per year? For us:
extra safety
more room
more power
can tow a trailer
can take the kids friends with us in comfort
easier to get parts for

A no brainer really...

OK I’ll bite.

As I said before Iv'e owned 2 BA Falcons and my wife owns a Mazda 6 Classic.

Purchase Price for a 2 year old example (Jan 2004 build) in automatic:
I used both the XT and the Futura to be fair.
Mazda 6 Classic = $33,345 (Resale = 23,300 – 26,900)
Falcon XT= $34,780 (Resale = 13,400 –16,000)
Falcon Futura = $38,135 (Resale = 14,300 – 17,000)

Safety – Win to Mazda 6.
’04 Falcon XT or Futura – ABS, Dual airbags, Side Airbags (OPTIONAL)
’04 Mazda 6 – ABS, Dual airbags, Side airbags (STANDARD)

Quality – Big win to Mazda 6
Falcon = Made in Australia
Mazda 6 = Made in Japan.
Now both Falcons were new and had – stalling issues, rough idle, leaking rubber seals around doors, water in boot, handbrake issues, brake shudder, broken bonnet catches, diff clunk, transmission shunt. Dealer would repair and then the same issue would just happen again. The Mazda has never seen a dealer unless it has been for scheduled servicing.

Power – Narrow win to Falcon.
Both the Falcon and the Mazda 6 both sprint to 100 in the low 8 second bracket so equal in that regard. Loaded down the Falcon would have the advantage though given its torque.

Towing – Win to the Falcon.

Fuel usage – Win to Mazda
Our “import” as you put it uses 9L/100kms in real world driving. Both BA’s used 12.5L/100kms in real world driving (forget what Ford tells you). Now based on 15,000kms a year that is 1350 litres of fuel in the Mazda vs 1875 litres of fuel in the Falcon. With petrol at $1.15 a litre on average that is a saving of $604 a year.

Room – Tie between Mazda 6 and Falcon.
Falcon = more interior space, but if you have ever looked in the interior of a Mazda 6 the backseat is quite large and unless you have 3 giants over 6’4 tall then in the real world the Falcon would have no advantage. The Mazda’s boot can also be opened like a hatch giving a far bigger load area than the Falcon.

As you can see both have their advantages and disadvantages but the Japanese car clearly wins on resale value and quality. Based over 2 years of ownership the saving on the Mazda 6 is as follows:

Purchase Price = $1435 vs XT to $4790 vs Futura
Fuel = $1208
Resale = using best case scenario – Mazda loses $6445 over 2 years. The XT loses $18,780 and the Futura loses $21,135.
Not having to visit dealer once a month - Priceless
Total Saved over 2 years - Mazda 6 vs XT = saving of $16,186
- Mazda 6 vs Futura = saving of $21,896

I can live with the quality issues, but not the resale. As I said I will probably buy another Falcon but from auction for $13K when it is 2 years old – seriously that is just terrible resale value and I can see why Falcon is now way down on the list of private purchases.

[chich]

Originally Posted by Falcon Freak

I honestly do not know why you waste your time on this forum when you clearly detest Australian made cars. As I said before, sell your EL Falcon and go buy a better made car.

FF

Why i waste my time on this forum and what i do with my own car is my business. If you were paying out of your pocket for your bucket you'd be singing a different tune my friend.

[Falcon Freak]

Originally Posted by chich

Why i waste my time on this forum and what i do with my own car is my business. If you were paying out of your pocket for your bucket you'd be singing a different tune my friend.

If I was paying out of my own pocket I'd still be driving a Falcon - even after all the problems my BA gave me. Why? Because one half-baked model isn't enough to turn me against the local industry. My previous Falcons (AU, EL, EA & XF), although not perfect, served me well and I was happy with those cars.

If I was paying out of my own pocket it wouldn't be a V8 XT either - it would be an XT sedan on eGas. $80 per tank of petrol (was almost $100 in August) which only gets me 430km around town is not justifiable at the moment.

FF

[05MkIIFutura]

Originally Posted by vztrt

. But the torque and power that come from the Aussie 6 is something fantastic.

To be perfectly honest the power and torque produced by our engines is done thru capacity, not technology. The new 3.5 V6 in the Aurion will produce 200+kw, while using less fuel. Using extra capacity to produce power is kinda cheating, similar to strapping a turbo on.

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by chich

The following threads are testament to the alleged 'quality' of the Ford product. Didn't have to look to long...


http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=68620

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=51860

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=67341

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=67118

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=69782

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=67663

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=65959

Being a ford forum you are bound too find issues on here.
Go too a holden one and see the same.
And I'm sure if you get onto a busy BMW Mercedes Benz forum people will share there issues on there also. They talk about it in the hope someone might be able too point them in the right direction for a hand.
Good friend of mine was telling me his mate works ford Mercedes, He's first job was taking care of the cars that arrived here, Then they moved him into lead salesman. He replaced a man that sold a Mercedes 6 years ago with rims that were on another car because the buyer wanted them. They weren't for that car and suspension in 3 years the car worn out all rubbers and plenty sets of tyres the dealer should have told the buyer about a different suspension set up with the rims but didn't, They lost plenty of this and he was fired for his error.
My friends mate doesn't driver a Mercedes he drives a VXII Calais 5.7lt. Many people that work for company's never buy there own products.

[Ringo]

^^ Very true...I worked at a BMW Dealer and not everyone drove a BMW - a few had 10-15 year old second hand ones of course including me for a period of time.

I can tell you the scenarios above sounds like big wide tyre with a lot of grip got put onto a car with standard suspension and the extra grip excerted extra forces on the suspension - seen it happen on 3 series - you can tell because the car tramlines under brakes - ie steers itself as the bushes deform and change steering geometry. Guess what HSV do to all their cars when they get them from GMH? Take out rubber bushes and put in Nolathane! - not sure about FPV...the rear suspension is different and copes better with more power than Holden (pre VE) suspension design

Anyway I want to pick up on the point that you make Slickholden. Your mate was fired because the dealership lost money fixing their mistake from 6 years earlier.

Why did they lose money? Because the dealership took responsibility for it actions of 6 years earlier !

How many Ford/Holden dealers would take responsibility for something they did 6 months earlier? Instead they make an excuse and wash their hands of it and burn the customer (who then gets on FF and posts)

This is the difference in the dealers attitudes. That is where the opportunity for improvement lies.

A good dealer can sometimes keep a customer loyal to the brand (and dealer) even through rocky times through customer service and attitude. This was part of the training I have recieved and it is true in all retail business.

Ask yourself what a customer minimum expectation of a dealership is. I mean the absolute minimum - it come down to 2 things

- to be treated with courtesy and respect
- to have their vehicle issues addressed and fixed FIRST TIME

Notice that getting the car back on the same day isn't there, notice price isn't there, notice getting a free hire car or a car wash isn't there - these all all nice to have but are over and above the minimum.

Don't satisfy the minimum expectations and your customers b*tch to their friends because they are a 'victim'. Your a dealership, your a trained specialist - fix it.

I can't believe how off topic I am now....sorry :
(*Ringo kicks the soapbox back under the desk and gets on with his day)

PS not having a dig at SlickHolden - just picking up on and expanding your point mate. this is after all the friendliest forum on the net right? :hihi:

PPS To get back on topic - Omega isn't selling well and a 4 cyl Camry has outsold it.......is anyone surprised !!

[S3SR]

and both holden and ford keep expecting to make more and more and sell more and more because?

theres only so many people in the world, theres only so many dollars people spend on fuel.

what they both need to do is keep a ****** car for more than 1 year and just release updates not whole new cars every second day. its their own fault if they go bust! im keeping my AU till it falls apart

[chich]

Originally Posted by SlickHolden

Being a ford forum you are bound too find issues on here.
Go too a holden one and see the same.
And I'm sure if you get onto a busy BMW Mercedes Benz forum people will share there issues on there also. They talk about it in the hope someone might be able too point them in the right direction for a hand.

Being a Ford forum its a definite that more issues will be presented here, but if you take a look on other non-australian forums you'll find that requests for assistance relating to quality issues occur much less frequently. Of course there are issues with other brands of cars, but the dealership/company takes ownership of the issues and gets them resolved. Unfortunately the same doesn't happen at Ford or Holden..

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by Ringo

^^ Very true...I worked at a BMW Dealer and not everyone drove a BMW - a few had 10-15 year old second hand ones of course including me for a period of time.

I can tell you the scenarios above sounds like big wide tyre with a lot of grip got put onto a car with standard suspension and the extra grip excerted extra forces on the suspension - seen it happen on 3 series - you can tell because the car tramlines under brakes - ie steers itself as the bushes deform and change steering geometry. Guess what HSV do to all their cars when they get them from GMH? Take out rubber bushes and put in Nolathane! - not sure about FPV...the rear suspension is different and copes better with more power than Holden (pre VE) suspension design

Anyway I want to pick up on the point that you make Slickholden. Your mate was fired because the dealership lost money fixing their mistake from 6 years earlier.

Why did they lose money? Because the dealership took responsibility for it actions of 6 years earlier !

How many Ford/Holden dealers would take responsibility for something they did 6 months earlier? Instead they make an excuse and wash their hands of it and burn the customer (who then gets on FF and posts)

This is the difference in the dealers attitudes. That is where the opportunity for improvement lies.

A good dealer can sometimes keep a customer loyal to the brand (and dealer) even through rocky times through customer service and attitude. This was part of the training I have recieved and it is true in all retail business.

Ask yourself what a customer minimum expectation of a dealership is. I mean the absolute minimum - it come down to 2 things

- to be treated with courtesy and respect
- to have their vehicle issues addressed and fixed FIRST TIME

Notice that getting the car back on the same day isn't there, notice price isn't there, notice getting a free hire car or a car wash isn't there - these all all nice to have but are over and above the minimum.

Don't satisfy the minimum expectations and your customers b*tch to their friends because they are a 'victim'. Your a dealership, your a trained specialist - fix it.

I can't believe how off topic I am now....sorry :
(*Ringo kicks the soapbox back under the desk and gets on with his day)

PS not having a dig at SlickHolden - just picking up on and expanding your point mate. this is after all the friendliest forum on the net right? :hihi:

PPS To get back on topic - Omega isn't selling well and a 4 cyl Camry has outsold it.......is anyone surprised !!

The guy that was on imports got this job. My mate knows this bloke and he was telling me how he got this other blokes job because he made a massive error, So they moved him off lead of import cars too head sales.
The dealership had too fix all this guys work they took responsibly which is good but they need too when there cars are priced like that. And did the right thing and gave this bloke the door on hi rear on the way out.
But it took 3 years of problems, Which should have been found earlier, He said the steering was a problem from these wheels also.
It does show what one error can do and it's the manufacturers responsibility too fix there mistakes. I'll have too catch up with him and ask him more on this blokes car.
I didn't see a dig anywhere You made clear more of what i was thinking and just couldn't get it out without him being here to explain it tha perfect

Originally Posted by chich

Being a Ford forum its a definite that more issues will be presented here, but if you take a look on other non-australian forums you'll find that requests for assistance relating to quality issues occur much less frequently. Of course there are issues with other brands of cars, but the dealership/company takes ownership of the issues and gets them resolved. Unfortunately the same doesn't happen at Ford or Holden..

My brother has a 2003 BA Fairmont. He's had it for about 17 months now and it's probably not the best one out there it's got problems little niggling ones that infuriated him. The brakes shuddering the steering heavy it rattles underneath and if his seat is moved back out of no-where the airbag warning light comes on.
Much of these things have been too ford too be fixed. They replaced the front rotors and flushed out the steering and brakes, And replaced a switch for something, He got the shits with the vibration under the car and removed the exhaust cover But it wasn't that Not happy again. But they have been pretty good at dealing with these problems. If just 5% of these cars build per year go back thats a huge number 2000-3000 Falcon 3000-4000 Commodore That's just new models, Thats plenty of cars too deal with and it might be more with very minor issues. Then take someone like BMW who might only sell 2000 cars per year. 5-20 might go back they got plenty of time too be very hands on, They might get a call cars broken down they might all stop and think WTF? Serious lets work we are bored.
But i would love too see the big guys work with Ford/Holden's Budgets work force and see if they can produce better cars at the same amounts, They would struggle no vodka on the job today
They could do better no doubt but i think they do a good job.
My car was running 27lt per 100. Holden couldn't help me and what they said was 20 things that in the end didn't help me and there last was it's a older car it's going too use fuel like that? 27lts? No way. Got onto Just Commodores forum others have had the same problem it's as simple as changing the oxygen sensor $80 Thanks holden:P. I went from 260km full tank too 450km. When they can't be bothered there horrible.

[GT290]

Originally Posted by puts99

Lets just hope people think the VE is ugly

its too executive for most I think. Saw one today and I don't know but I would not run out and get one. I fgor one can not wait for 2008 and ford release a new GT. I will be their waiting at the front door with the check book no worries.

[Mutley]

Originally Posted by colossus

OK I’ll bite.

As I said before Iv'e owned 2 BA Falcons and my wife owns a Mazda 6 Classic.

Purchase Price for a 2 year old example (Jan 2004 build) in automatic:
I used both the XT and the Futura to be fair.
Mazda 6 Classic = $33,345 (Resale = 23,300 – 26,900)
Falcon XT= $34,780 (Resale = 13,400 –16,000)
Falcon Futura = $38,135 (Resale = 14,300 – 17,000)

Safety – Win to Mazda 6.
’04 Falcon XT or Futura – ABS, Dual airbags, Side Airbags (OPTIONAL)
’04 Mazda 6 – ABS, Dual airbags, Side airbags (STANDARD)

Quality – Big win to Mazda 6
Falcon = Made in Australia
Mazda 6 = Made in Japan.
Now both Falcons were new and had – stalling issues, rough idle, leaking rubber seals around doors, water in boot, handbrake issues, brake shudder, broken bonnet catches, diff clunk, transmission shunt. Dealer would repair and then the same issue would just happen again. The Mazda has never seen a dealer unless it has been for scheduled servicing.

Power – Narrow win to Falcon.
Both the Falcon and the Mazda 6 both sprint to 100 in the low 8 second bracket so equal in that regard. Loaded down the Falcon would have the advantage though given its torque.

Towing – Win to the Falcon.

Fuel usage – Win to Mazda
Our “import” as you put it uses 9L/100kms in real world driving. Both BA’s used 12.5L/100kms in real world driving (forget what Ford tells you). Now based on 15,000kms a year that is 1350 litres of fuel in the Mazda vs 1875 litres of fuel in the Falcon. With petrol at $1.15 a litre on average that is a saving of $604 a year.

Room – Tie between Mazda 6 and Falcon.
Falcon = more interior space, but if you have ever looked in the interior of a Mazda 6 the backseat is quite large and unless you have 3 giants over 6’4 tall then in the real world the Falcon would have no advantage. The Mazda’s boot can also be opened like a hatch giving a far bigger load area than the Falcon.

As you can see both have their advantages and disadvantages but the Japanese car clearly wins on resale value and quality. Based over 2 years of ownership the saving on the Mazda 6 is as follows:

Purchase Price = $1435 vs XT to $4790 vs Futura
Fuel = $1208
Resale = using best case scenario – Mazda loses $6445 over 2 years. The XT loses $18,780 and the Futura loses $21,135.
Not having to visit dealer once a month - Priceless
Total Saved over 2 years - Mazda 6 vs XT = saving of $16,186
- Mazda 6 vs Futura = saving of $21,896

I can live with the quality issues, but not the resale. As I said I will probably buy another Falcon but from auction for $13K when it is 2 years old – seriously that is just terrible resale value and I can see why Falcon is now way down on the list of private purchases.

Resale on the falcons and commodores is primarily affected by the significant fleet sales to govt etc when new. Private buyers buy for close to list while fleet buyers buy with up to 39% discount. In this market, it is difficult to justify buying privately.

On the other hand, buying from an auction represents excellent value. The real value to you will kick in with vehicles that are 2 years old. Unfortunately this is when you have got out of your previous Falcons.

[Mutley]

Originally Posted by colossus

OK I’ll bite.

As I said before Iv'e owned 2 BA Falcons and my wife owns a Mazda 6 Classic.

Purchase Price for a 2 year old example (Jan 2004 build) in automatic:
I used both the XT and the Futura to be fair.
Mazda 6 Classic = $33,345 (Resale = 23,300 – 26,900)
Falcon XT= $34,780 (Resale = 13,400 –16,000)
Falcon Futura = $38,135 (Resale = 14,300 – 17,000)

Safety – Win to Mazda 6.
’04 Falcon XT or Futura – ABS, Dual airbags, Side Airbags (OPTIONAL)
’04 Mazda 6 – ABS, Dual airbags, Side airbags (STANDARD)

Quality – Big win to Mazda 6
Falcon = Made in Australia
Mazda 6 = Made in Japan.
Now both Falcons were new and had – stalling issues, rough idle, leaking rubber seals around doors, water in boot, handbrake issues, brake shudder, broken bonnet catches, diff clunk, transmission shunt. Dealer would repair and then the same issue would just happen again. The Mazda has never seen a dealer unless it has been for scheduled servicing.

Power – Narrow win to Falcon.
Both the Falcon and the Mazda 6 both sprint to 100 in the low 8 second bracket so equal in that regard. Loaded down the Falcon would have the advantage though given its torque.

Towing – Win to the Falcon.

Fuel usage – Win to Mazda
Our “import” as you put it uses 9L/100kms in real world driving. Both BA’s used 12.5L/100kms in real world driving (forget what Ford tells you). Now based on 15,000kms a year that is 1350 litres of fuel in the Mazda vs 1875 litres of fuel in the Falcon. With petrol at $1.15 a litre on average that is a saving of $604 a year.

Room – Tie between Mazda 6 and Falcon.
Falcon = more interior space, but if you have ever looked in the interior of a Mazda 6 the backseat is quite large and unless you have 3 giants over 6’4 tall then in the real world the Falcon would have no advantage. The Mazda’s boot can also be opened like a hatch giving a far bigger load area than the Falcon.

As you can see both have their advantages and disadvantages but the Japanese car clearly wins on resale value and quality. Based over 2 years of ownership the saving on the Mazda 6 is as follows:

Purchase Price = $1435 vs XT to $4790 vs Futura
Fuel = $1208
Resale = using best case scenario – Mazda loses $6445 over 2 years. The XT loses $18,780 and the Futura loses $21,135.
Not having to visit dealer once a month - Priceless
Total Saved over 2 years - Mazda 6 vs XT = saving of $16,186
- Mazda 6 vs Futura = saving of $21,896

I can live with the quality issues, but not the resale. As I said I will probably buy another Falcon but from auction for $13K when it is 2 years old – seriously that is just terrible resale value and I can see why Falcon is now way down on the list of private purchases.

You also mentioned room. I'm just about to come out of the young kids stage. If I can say this, you have more room as an adult in a rear seat than a child with a booster seat - Fact.

Secondly, once the child's seat is in place, you won't want to shift it. Forget folding down the rear seat. Undoing threaded seatbelts, anchor points and then folding up the loose straps so your kid doesn't try to wrap them around their head whilst you are driving is a hassle, and is usually performed late at night when all you want to do is go to bed.

Finally, two prams fold up but I'll challenge anyone to fold a pram in a busy carpark when your kid has just cracked the shits because they have been cooped up in a pram whilst mum has been trying to do the shopping whilst dad has been getting ****ed off because its been taking longer than it should because the kid vomited in the pram........

Buy a wagon for this part of your life, its easier. You can hold your kids throat ... oops! hand with one hand whilst you throw the pram, still unfolded, with the shopping and the fold a cot, high chair, change table, etc with the other hand in the back.

Ah, just had to get that off my chest!

Originally Posted by colossus

OK I’ll bite.

As I said before Iv'e owned 2 BA Falcons and my wife owns a Mazda 6 Classic.

Purchase Price for a 2 year old example (Jan 2004 build) in automatic:
I used both the XT and the Futura to be fair.
Mazda 6 Classic = $33,345 (Resale = 23,300 – 26,900)
Falcon XT= $34,780 (Resale = 13,400 –16,000)
Falcon Futura = $38,135 (Resale = 14,300 – 17,000)

Safety – Win to Mazda 6.
’04 Falcon XT or Futura – ABS, Dual airbags, Side Airbags (OPTIONAL)
’04 Mazda 6 – ABS, Dual airbags, Side airbags (STANDARD)

Quality – Big win to Mazda 6
Falcon = Made in Australia
Mazda 6 = Made in Japan.
Now both Falcons were new and had – stalling issues, rough idle, leaking rubber seals around doors, water in boot, handbrake issues, brake shudder, broken bonnet catches, diff clunk, transmission shunt. Dealer would repair and then the same issue would just happen again. The Mazda has never seen a dealer unless it has been for scheduled servicing.

Power – Narrow win to Falcon.
Both the Falcon and the Mazda 6 both sprint to 100 in the low 8 second bracket so equal in that regard. Loaded down the Falcon would have the advantage though given its torque.

Towing – Win to the Falcon.

Fuel usage – Win to Mazda
Our “import” as you put it uses 9L/100kms in real world driving. Both BA’s used 12.5L/100kms in real world driving (forget what Ford tells you). Now based on 15,000kms a year that is 1350 litres of fuel in the Mazda vs 1875 litres of fuel in the Falcon. With petrol at $1.15 a litre on average that is a saving of $604 a year.

Room – Tie between Mazda 6 and Falcon.
Falcon = more interior space, but if you have ever looked in the interior of a Mazda 6 the backseat is quite large and unless you have 3 giants over 6’4 tall then in the real world the Falcon would have no advantage. The Mazda’s boot can also be opened like a hatch giving a far bigger load area than the Falcon.

As you can see both have their advantages and disadvantages but the Japanese car clearly wins on resale value and quality. Based over 2 years of ownership the saving on the Mazda 6 is as follows:

Purchase Price = $1435 vs XT to $4790 vs Futura
Fuel = $1208
Resale = using best case scenario – Mazda loses $6445 over 2 years. The XT loses $18,780 and the Futura loses $21,135.
Not having to visit dealer once a month - Priceless
Total Saved over 2 years - Mazda 6 vs XT = saving of $16,186
- Mazda 6 vs Futura = saving of $21,896

I can live with the quality issues, but not the resale. As I said I will probably buy another Falcon but from auction for $13K when it is 2 years old – seriously that is just terrible resale value and I can see why Falcon is now way down on the list of private purchases.

Ok I'll bite back. Tell me who actually buys XT's and Futuras? Fleets right?

Who buys Mazda 6's? Retail buyers. Hence part of the resale issue. There is a lot more to resale than what redbook etc says.

And let me tell you there is no way a 2 year old Mazda 6 will only lose $7-10,000. If a dealer trades a Mazda 6 Classic in for $26000, what is it meant to then be sold for? Lets say $29,990 for arguments sake. The dealer makes $2990 if it is sold for the full price, which we all know won't happen. For the dealer to have a decent chance of making a profit it will have a price tag of $32,990, less any disounts negotiated. So would you pay around $30,000 for a 2yr old Mazda 6 or would you rather pay upto mid-$30's for a brand new one? I certainly wouldn't buy used.

And one other thing, although I think the Mazda 6 is a great medium sedan, it does not have anywhere near enough room compete head on with a large sedan. Fuel economy depends more on the driver than anything else. I have seen too many Falcon 4.0l 6cyl petrol sedans average between 11.0 and 11.9 to ignore. YES it is possible!

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by RATT

Ok I'll bite back. Tell me who actually buys XT's and Futuras? Fleets right?

Who buys Mazda 6's? Retail buyers. Hence part of the resale issue. There is a lot more to resale than what redbook etc say.

And let me tell you there is no way a 2 year old Mazda 6 will only lose $7-10,000. If a dealer trades a Mazda 6 Classic in for $26000, what is it meant to then be sold for? Lets say $29,990 for arguments sake. The dealer makes $2990 if it is sold for the full price, which we all know won't happen. For the dealer to have a decent chance of making a profit it will have a price tag of $32,990, less any disounts negotiated. So would you pay around $30,000 for a 2yr old Mazda 6 or would you rather pay upto mid-$30's for a brand new one? I certainly wouldn't buy used.

And one other thing, although I think the Mazda 6 is a great medium sedan, it does not have anywhere near enough room compete head on with a large sedan. Fuel economy depends more on the driver than anything else. I have seen too many Falcon 4.0l 6cyl petrol sedans average between 11.0 and 11.9 to ignore. YES it is possible!

Mazda 6 Classic 2 years old is worth 22 grand wholesale max, on a good day. If you were to go shopping on a new car and had a 6 with 40,000 kays on it, basic options you would be looking at more like 19 grand as by the time you got roadworthy, replaced tyres and put it on the lot you would only get 24,000 for it max, and even then you have to make it worthwhile with the abundance of demos around and the fact that theres a later model out now.

As for the XT you would only get $15,000 for the same kays, but its no where near the figures this guy is talking about, even if they are quoted from Redbook.

Dealer wholesalers have all just about thrown away redbook values as they are as useless as a bull with tits with the way the industry comes and goes. Theres more interest in getting values from pickles and fowles these days, as if they can get it from the auction for a certain amount then thats all its worth.

Thank you.

[Iphido]

Ford is addressing this issue of poor resale with massive cuts in retail pricing while very little change in fleet pricing (as Im lead to belive) with the new BFII.

Fuel wise there is little diffrence between a Mazda 6 and a falcon. The larger auto 6's are listed at 10's per 100 combined which is in falcon territory.

Holden is in a steeper position, with the V6 being quiet a bit thirstier (how the worm has turned). And the V8's being extremely thirsty.

Dealers, manufacturing and advertising could be better. As could LPG. Theres lots of areas of improvement for Ford before having to bail out of the large sedan market.

Theres no doubt that buying habits are changing and the classic aussie sedan is under threat.

But:
-Diesel and effective LPG options
-Improvements in kerb weight, efficency and quality
-Superior focus on the local market providing niche solutions

Will see them as strong competitors for the foreseeable future.

[Falcon Freak]

I hope so. Will be interesting to see how many BFIIs will be sold during the month of October. Hey RATT, how is initial public interest/demand going for the new models?

FF

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by Iphido

Holden is in a steeper position, with the V6 being quiet a bit thirstier (how the worm has turned). And the V8's being extremely thirsty.
.

Quite a bit? Quite a bit of a exaggeration there...
Soon i will left you know pics and all what a VE can do on fuel over 1000km 2-3 full tanks.