Toyota workers warned

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by Rapid_Axe

This.

Why is Toyota not allowed to employ someone without union involvement?
Why is Toyota not allowed to hire casuals?
Why is Toyota not allowed to hire contractors without approval from two (?!?!?) union members?

What a effin load of bull excrement. The more I read about unions and their ridiculous agendas the more I'm satisfied that I decided to go with being a white collar worker.

39 months continuous disciplinary action before dismissal?

Crap

If you eff up here three times you're gone.
If you make a huge mistake with someone's money you're gone.
If you are representing your company in an important meeting and you badmouth your employer you can bet your bottom dollar you're gone.

Someone put in a law to eradicate unions and the country may survive future hurt.

I agree with 99% of your post, however the last sentence I don't.
There is a time and a place for unions but they themselves need to evolve into the 21st century like everyone has to.
The workplace is no longer an us vs them mentality.
The union at Toyota should look at how the German unions work with the manufacturers over there. The key there is work with and not threaten, demand or bully.

I just don't understand why they can't work with the company for the future of the employees. Are they blind to the excess entitlements or just greedy? We all need to have some kind of compromise to survive. Toyota rewarded their employees when the times were good and now that times are tough they need a little help to ensure the future of the plant and its employees. The union should be working with Toyota to achieve the goal.

[gtfpv]

i'VE replied way to much in this thread . trying to explain things that are probably above my head . not trying to bag , but trying to justify . i'm off to work now unless they changed the start time since yesterday , or replaced me with a casual , or better worker , we'll talk tomorrow . thats if the govt doesnt decide my suburb is now an ocean .while i'm not here . one never knows . why should they not do this . why is the sky blue . flees make you itchy , why is that . yoh dal dee yoh dal dah , hetyghdveurhcnebdh

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by Wretched

I agree with 99% of your post, however the last sentence I don't.
There is a time and a place for unions but they themselves need to evolve into the 21st century like everyone has to.
The workplace is no longer an us vs them mentality.
The union at Toyota should look at how the German unions work with the manufacturers over there. The key there is work with and not threaten, demand or bully.

I just don't understand why they can't work with the company for the future of the employees. Are they blind to the excess entitlements or just greedy? We all need to have some kind of compromise to survive. Toyota rewarded their employees when the times were good and now that times are tough they need a little help to ensure the future of the plant and its employees. The union should be working with Toyota to achieve the goal.

most ebas have a clause stating that in change of circumstances, the comapny has the right to change the eba , to something pre planned and agreed , or re negotiate, or award . companies dont sign them otherwise . i think its standard procedure but i could be wrong .

[Franco Cozzo]

All you anti unionists can give back your paid sick leave, paid annual leave, superannuation and any other benefits fought for an won through union action over the years.

If you're self employed stop your whinging that you don't get any benefits and all "woe is me", close your business and join the employees getting their benefits and enjoy the $50K a year or less as an auto tradesman., become a light vehicle mechanic working in a dealership getting paid $18/hour and then tell us how great it is with all our benefits.

I see a lot of anti unionism but not a lot of appreciation for what they have done.

Ford ruined their business, because they failed to attract customers to the Falcon, not because the guy on the floor is being paid $25 an hour. Just like the Diesel Territory, why didn't it have a diesel from the early days, instead give it an old V6 engine near the end of its life.

[Adamz Ghia]

So if the union doesn't renegotiate their agreement, and Toyota close citing high costs, is it the unions fault then...?

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia

So if the union doesn't renegotiate their agreement, and Toyota close citing high costs, is it the unions fault then...?

What happens if the unions renegotiate their agreement and Toyota closes anyway? Like Holden?

Or like the banks, make eleventy billion dollars profit and they still send jobs off shore?

Why does the guy on the bottom have to make sacrifices? What about the top? There are a hell of a lot of companies very top heavy with managers managing nothing, especially some government departments.

Just because Joe Average on the floor agrees to cuts it doesn't mean Toyota will magically stay and that all their problems are magically solved.

Funny how the media says something wrong about Ford/Falcon and all the people with blue tinted glasses act up and slander the journo writing it, but when the blame is the unions everyone is quick to grab the pitch forks and torches rather than look at their point of view.

[mik]

When it all comes down to it , if the company is not making money and is trying to keep this branch in Australia alive, workers can either try and be part of the solution or part of the problem, the same goes for unions.
it might involve some sacrifice on the workers part, whether they are willing to do that is up to them, and even then there is no gaurantees.
I suspect there are quite a few that would rather take their payout and move on, this is a problem with having accumulative payouts.

[mr smith]

The current set up to dismiss someone is a joke. I know of two people with small businesses that have work for an employee but are %^&t scared of employing a dud they cannot sack. That needs to change ASAP. Its a fact that bar fighting and blatant sexual harassment, you cannot be sacked from an auto company in Australia. As an ex shop steward I am embarrassed about what the current union movement has become.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by mr smith

The current set up to dismiss someone is a joke. I know of two people with small businesses that have work for an employee but are %^&t scared of employing a dud they cannot sack. That needs to change ASAP. Its a fact that bar fighting and blatant sexual harassment, you cannot be sacked from an auto company in Australia. As an ex shop steward I am embarrassed about what the current union movement has become.

The unions did not legislate dismissal laws here in Australia, Federal Government & state Governments had their hands in legislation.

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by b0son

What I was alluding to was that were Toyota in a position to start from scratch, and offer only wages and conditions in line with a basic manufacturing award, quite significant cost savings could be made.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opin...1226781040913#

When Toyota wants to hire someone, a union (employee) representative must sit in every single job interview as "an observer"

Toyota is allowed to hire casuals only from "time to time" and not at all without union agreement

Contract labour can be hired only after Toyota reaches "agreement with the relevant Union official and Employee (union) Representative"

the agreement mandates one team leader to look after "between 5-7 process workers". Supervisors, whose base rates range from $75,000 to $103,000, are forbidden from helping with workloads.

If Toyota needs to dismiss someone, an outrageous procedure of at least three years and three months continuous disciplinary action is required before dismissal can occur.

One could be forgiven for thinking the union runs Toyota.

I don't subscribe to the Australian so I couldn't see who wrote that opinion piece which is what is in the title "opinion"
Pretty much a conservative mouth-piece the Murdoch Australian.

A basic manufacturing award? Hmmm, sounds like a 1950's thought process.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Bill M

A basic manufacturing award? Hmmm, sounds like a 1950's thought process.

you mean like when we had thriving industry?

[b0son]

Originally Posted by trublu

The unions did not legislate dismissal laws here in Australia, Federal Government

federal *Labor* government... ie. the ACTU's political arm....

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Why does the guy on the bottom have to make sacrifices? What about the top?

Several consecutive years of losses by each manufacturer. How much more sacrifice should the company make?

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by b0son

federal *Labor* government... ie. the ACTU's political arm....

Ahh but we have a Liberal government too but politics aside if a company wants to dismiss a worker for valid reasons the Employer/Company can have it arbitrated by Fair Work Australia if it is disputed by both parties.

It is not a case of where unions dictate to the companies or visa versa, they can try but there is laws protecting both Employer & employees.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Why does the guy on the bottom have to make sacrifices? What about the top? There are a hell of a lot of companies very top heavy with managers managing nothing, especially some government departments.

How do you Know how 'top heavy' Toyota or any other firm is.
How do you Know they aren't taking a hit in their remuneration.
Id suggest there is little media attention here becuase firstly the numbers of people (so called top) are low and secondly they are not 'protected' by a union who will use the media and whatever means to aide their cause.

I am not anti-union, as you point out there has been significant improvement in employment welfare since the bad old days of the industrial revolution where our current model was initiated.
What I am Anti, is untruths, unknowns, hearsay and anecdotes, blatant misrepresentation and ignorance guiding an important debate.



JP

[BHDOGS]

How do u survive on aff then because that's all there is on this forum

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by b0son

Several consecutive years of losses by each manufacturer. How much more sacrifice should the company make?

The reasons for car manufacturing closing shop here is not labour costs alone but due to other factors as mentioned by Ford & Holden.
To blame the unions for the downfall of the manufacturing decline in this country is total ignorance on the subject.
You have the high rate in the AUD, Sales decline, Government policies, Geographical location, globalisation policies, FTA's... the list goes on

Need I say more.

[Adamz Ghia]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

What happens if the unions renegotiate their agreement and Toyota closes anyway? Like Holden?

Or like the banks, make eleventy billion dollars profit and they still send jobs off shore?

Why does the guy on the bottom have to make sacrifices? What about the top? There are a hell of a lot of companies very top heavy with managers managing nothing, especially some government departments.

Just because Joe Average on the floor agrees to cuts it doesn't mean Toyota will magically stay and that all their problems are magically solved.

Funny how the media says something wrong about Ford/Falcon and all the people with blue tinted glasses act up and slander the journo writing it, but when the blame is the unions everyone is quick to grab the pitch forks and torches rather than look at their point of view.

What do the Toyota execs get paid...? I'm assuming you know seeing as you think it's only the workers getting squeezed. Everyone cops it, it's just the higher up you are the less it seems as they're paid a lot already, as they should be.

Toyota don't like closing factories, that's the difference between them and Holden. And from what I've read today of what Holden were paying their workers I hope those at Toyota had a close look.

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia

So if the union doesn't renegotiate their agreement, and Toyota close citing high costs, is it the unions fault then...?

I wonder how much support the union will give the ex employees of Toyota when negotiations fail and Toyota close the door?

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by F6 Concorde

I wonder how much support the union will give the ex employees of Toyota when negotiations fail and Toyota close the door?

Probably as much what the government will do....very limited.

I'm talking from experience as I have been through a redundancy years ago.

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by trublu

Probably as much what the government will do....very limited.

I'm talking from experience as I have been through a redundancy years ago.

So what purpose do they serve if they cannot look after the workers, or ex workers?

[b0son]

Originally Posted by trublu

The reasons for car manufacturing closing shop here is not labour costs alone

not solely, no. but when our man hours per unit is significantly higher than our competitors (not China/Korea, but Europe/Japan), clearly there is scope for significant improvement. that doesn't mean cut hourly rates. but 'top heavy' applies on the line too - too many supervisors for the work output is just one example of excessive labour costs, and its the union that push for excessive staffing levels.

[irish2]

Just to put it out there, I am self employed and a union member. There is much more to unions than simply 'sticking it to the man'...

[GREGL]

Originally Posted by irish2

Just to put it out there, I am self employed and a union member. There is much more to unions than simply 'sticking it to the man'...

Sometimes you have to be a member of a union to access a worksite even though you are self employed . No membership no access , is this what you are trying to say ?

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by F6 Concorde

So what purpose do they serve if they cannot look after the workers, or ex workers?

Who says they do not look after workers or ex workers?

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

How do you Know how 'top heavy' Toyota or any other firm is.
How do you Know they aren't taking a hit in their remuneration.
Id suggest there is little media attention here becuase firstly the numbers of people (so called top) are low and secondly they are not 'protected' by a union who will use the media and whatever means to aide their cause.

I am not anti-union, as you point out there has been significant improvement in employment welfare since the bad old days of the industrial revolution where our current model was initiated.
What I am Anti, is untruths, unknowns, hearsay and anecdotes, blatant misrepresentation and ignorance guiding an important debate.



JP

Maybe because I work in the manufacturing industry in Victoria, to a lesser scale as the big three, but we're still considered a manufacturer, and I see the bullshit politics that go on between our supervisors and upper management, and THEIR decisions cost us 20 vehicles to a new competitor and THEIR decisions cost 3 peoples jobs on the floor, THEIR decisions have put us in our situation.

If individual contracts are so fair why is our office admin getting paid more than any of the tradesman on the floor? Why is the guy who does less than everyone getting paid $3/hour more than the other guys? Why does the guy who works the most, but struggles to read/write English but is the best guy when it comes to work ethic, output and quality of work getting paid the least? Why does one particular apprentice get to learn his trade while the others get stuck in one spot for their whole apprenticeship?

What I've experienced, this is what happens when you have no union in the workplace, its FAR from fair.

Lets not bullshit ourselves here, when it comes to individual contracts, its who can speak the most **** in the interview is who gets paid the most and who can play the workplace politics game the best. In my workplace what you negotiated on when you started is what you are stuck with, we've had people on minimum wage to higher than award by a few dollars and the guys on the higher end arent the hard workers, they're the guys who go out and smoke with the boss during working hours.

Thats also another thing I've noticed in my workplace, its very much so US and THEM. All the management team are allowed to go make tea/coffee and smoke during working hours but if any one of us attempts it its a big no-no, we can't even use their toilet.

But if you're in the gang, or the favorites its OK to go out and smoke with them, non smoker lifts his head up for 5 seconds and you get called a bludger.

I'd like to hear from BossXR8 to see if his experience is similar to mine.

When my company goes under, which union are you going to blame, is it going to be our fault even though we don't call the shots?

As people who don't work in the manufacturing industry in Victoria, what do YOU know about the industry other than what Rupert Murdoch and the Liberals spoon feed you?

The game is over, doesn't matter if the guy on the floor takes the pay cut, its about paying the least, just a group of bean counters doing their jobs.

Skill up NOW while you still have a job, unfortunately what happens to all those middle aged men who have been doing this for their entire working career, or the guys who don't speak/understand English properly?

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by GREGL

Sometimes you have to be a member of a union to access a worksite even though you are self employed . No membership no access , is this what you are trying to say ?

Lot of professions require you to join some form of association or union so what is the big deal?

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by b0son

not solely, no. but when our man hours per unit is significantly higher than our competitors (not China/Korea, but Europe/Japan), clearly there is scope for significant improvement. that doesn't mean cut hourly rates. but 'top heavy' applies on the line too - too many supervisors for the work output is just one example of excessive labour costs, and its the union that push for excessive staffing levels.

I'm quite sure Toyota like any other business has looked at staff cuts where needed & has implemented it, did they not recently have redundancies?
I work for a very big steel Manufacturer in Melbourne & in the past 6 years we have have had experienced excessive staff cuts which has been endorsed by the union, no one liked it but it had to be done for the companies survival.

Unions do work in with companies & off course they will try to protect jobs & conditions as this what they are paid to do.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Maybe because I work in the manufacturing industry in Victoria, to a lesser scale as the big three, but we're still considered a manufacturer, and I see the bullshit politics that go on between our supervisors and upper management, and THEIR decisions cost us 20 vehicles to a new competitor and THEIR decisions cost 3 peoples jobs on the floor, THEIR decisions have put us in our situation.

If individual contracts are so fair why is our office admin getting paid more than any of the tradesman on the floor? Why is the guy who does less than everyone getting paid $3/hour more than the other guys? Why does the guy who works the most, but struggles to read/write English but is the best guy when it comes to work ethic, output and quality of work getting paid the least? Why does one particular apprentice get to learn his trade while the others get stuck in one spot for their whole apprenticeship?

What I've experienced, this is what happens when you have no union in the workplace, its FAR from fair.

Lets not bullshit ourselves here, when it comes to individual contracts, its who can speak the most **** in the interview is who gets paid the most and who can play the workplace politics game the best. In my workplace what you negotiated on when you started is what you are stuck with, we've had people on minimum wage to higher than award by a few dollars and the guys on the higher end arent the hard workers, they're the guys who go out and smoke with the boss during working hours.

Thats also another thing I've noticed in my workplace, its very much so US and THEM. All the management team are allowed to go make tea/coffee and smoke during working hours but if any one of us attempts it its a big no-no, we can't even use their toilet.

But if you're in the gang, or the favorites its OK to go out and smoke with them, non smoker lifts his head up for 5 seconds and you get called a bludger.

I'd like to hear from BossXR8 to see if his experience is similar to mine.

When my company goes under, which union are you going to blame, is it going to be our fault even though we don't call the shots?

As people who don't work in the manufacturing industry in Victoria, what do YOU know about the industry other than what Rupert Murdoch and the Liberals spoon feed you?

The game is over, doesn't matter if the guy on the floor takes the pay cut, its about paying the least, just a group of bean counters doing their jobs.

Skill up NOW while you still have a job, unfortunately what happens to all those middle aged men who have been doing this for their entire working career, or the guys who don't speak/understand English properly?

Haven't really experienced any of that, but we are a closed shop. I'm actually the shop steward for powertrain, and from the 5 or so months I have spent in this role Ford and the Union have an excellent relationship. They always consult us on any decisions and ask for input as well. Everyone benefits.

And it is an absolute joke when guys get on here and mouth off that all unions want to do is strike and all that rubbish. I can stand here and say that in the past 14 years of me working for Ford we have never been on strike once.

You just have to laugh at the ill informed clowns who have no idea about the unions and the manufacturers and what goes on, but think they have the right to comment and make ridiculous claims about things they know nothing about.

The one thing that is completely wrong is the claim in those articles that Toyota want to get rid of the 3 week Christmas shutdown, when it was actually Toyota themselves who instigated the 3 week shutdown, cause they had a bunch of unsold Camry's sitting around on grass. And Christmas time is the best time to take leave as fleets don't really buy cars in December and January so it's a quite time for sales anyway. And the fact remains that the leave would have been taken at some other time as it was allocated annual leave that everyone gets as part of workplace law. But blame the union for that. For some reason?

It's funny how in all these articles about Toyota no one mentions the amount of bullying that is going on there, and the employees being too scared to report it as they are all fearful of losing their jobs with redundancies coming up. Some of the stories coming out of Toyota at the moment are downright discraceful. Management should hang their heads in shame for allowing it to take place. The Japanese really believe in the servant and master system.

[BHDOGS]

Its quite strange a company deliberately twisting things to make it look like its the good guy and its the mean unions and govment causing trouble alot like oh i dont knowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww holden did.