RACQ's safest and most deadly used cars

[Maka]

Very interesting link, I'm glad no AU Falcons are on the bad list, VT Commodore otoh whoops

https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...c794aa31610a08

Whats everyone's thoughts on this list?

Edit, hope you can access the link, i read it on first viewing but you need a account now dohh!!

cheers, Maka

[Dr Smith]

My first thought is to have a look at the details of how the data is interpreted and what allowances they make for driver type e.g, male/female/under 25 over 60, day time/night time, urban/rural etc.. etc...
I'm guessing it's a nation-wide data base and not just QLD-only seeing as Monash Uni is involved and so what other factors are taken into consideration.
Melbourne against popular myth is not as wet as a town in FNQ yet we have far greater congestion and vehicles on the road. Driving through a tropical downpour in Cairns is far more dangerous then say heavy rain in Melbourne or Hobart.
I once aqua planed a Statesman hire car near Palm Cove such was the water over the road and totally invisible until too late..and I was driving 20km/hr below the speed limit.
As with most reports the devil is in the detail.
I guess the moral is a newer vehicle is always going to be safer than the same older model. But would a 10 year old MB E class be safer than a 2 year old Sonata?
Back to work for me....

[Maka]

If any members who have a account with the Courier Mail & can access the above link, please cut & paste the story & post it here please, TIA.

cheers, Maka

[Maka]

Here's some direct RACQ links to the info & a pdf -

https://live.racq.com.au/2018/09/dea...est-used-cars/

https://www.racq.com.au/cars-and-dri...safety-ratings

cheers, Maka

[Maka]

The latest RACQ 2nd hand car safety rating list is a eye opener for sure, Dr Smith nailed it in his post too imo.

cheers, Maka

[pundit]

Found it interesting how on the smaller car list the newer Hyundai Elantra 07-12 is 4 stars where as 12-16 model is 3..


Something to think of though.. Been considering getting the missus a 07ish Focus as she finds her BA XR6 too big, but in the back of my mind the BA is safer as its got more around it eventho its probably wrong!

[mike_nofx]

Definitely owner demographics comes into it too. VT’s mostly owned by Mangs likely to dangerously thrash them

[cheap]

Monash University - hmm 🤔

[Ford17]

Originally Posted by Maka

If any members who have a account with the Courier Mail & can access the above link, please cut & paste the story & post it here please, TIA.

cheers, Maka

RACQ reveals safest and most deadly used cars

Talisa Eley, The Courier-Mail
September 19, 2018 7:07am
Subscriber only

THE state’s most deadly second-hand cars have been revealed as the RACQ surveys the best and worst used cars in the market.

The annual Used Car Safety Ratings report, led by Monash University, has revealed there is a stark difference between different models, despite similar price tags.

Disturbingly 107 of the car models studied were given ‘poor’ or ‘very poor’ marks for safety, mostly for cars manufactured in the 90s or early 2000s.


The Holden VR Commodore was given one of the worst marks for safety

Among the safest cars were brands including Audi, BMW, Jaguar and Volkswagen.

However Ford, Holden and Subaru featured on both the best and worst lists.

Researchers measured each model for safety, not only for the driver, but also for other road users.

RACQ Head of Technical and Safety Policy Steve Spalding said the data shows buyers can still pick up a good second-hand car, but they need to take a car’s safety rating into account.

“A person driving a one-star vehicle is almost twice as likely to be killed or seriously hurt than someone in a five-star car,” he said.

“Smart, safe choices needn’t hit you in the hip pocket. A safe used vehicle can be

picked up for less than $10,000.”

SAFEST

Audi A4/S4 B8/AllRoad/RS4 (2008-2015)

BMW 1 Series E81/E82/E87/E88 (2004-2013)

Ford Mondeo (2007-2015)

Holden Statesman/Caprice WM/WN (2006-2016)

Jaguar X-type (2002- 2010)


2006-2016 Holden Caprice models were some of the safest second-hand cars.

Mercedes Benz CLK C209 (2003-2009)

Mercedes Benz E-Class W212/C207/A207 (2009-2016)

Subaru Liberty/Legacy/Outback/Exiga (2009-2014)

Volkswagen Passat (2006-2015)

MOST DEADLY

Daewoo Cielo (1995-1997), Nubira/Lanos (1997-2003)

Daihatsu Applause (1989-1999)

Ford Falcon EF/EL (1994-1998)

Ford Laser (1995-1997)

Holden Commodore VR/VS/Lexcen (1993-1997)

Holden Commodore VT/VX (1997/2002)

Holden/Toyota Corolla/Nova (1994-1997), Toyota Corolla/Allex (1998-2001)

Holden Stateman/Caprice VR/VS (1994-1998)

Honda Civic (1996-2000)

Honda Prelude (1992-1996)


200-2006 Nissan Pulsar models rated poorly.

Hyundai Elantra/Accent (2000-2006)

Mazda 323/Familia/Lantis (1995-1998)

Mitsubishi Lancer/Mirage CE (1996-2003), Lancer CH (2003-2007)

Mitsubishi Magna TE/TF/TH/TJ/Verada KE/ 96-03 KF/KH/KJ/Diamante (1996-2003)

Nissan Pulsar/Bluebird Sylphy (2000-2005)

Subaru Impreza (1993-2000)

Subaru Liberty/Legacy/Outback (1994-1998)

Toyota Celica (1994-1999)

[Maka]

Ford17 thank you!! Very much appreciated!!

cheers, Maka

[.:4:.]

Originally Posted by Ford17

RACQ reveals safest and most deadly used cars

Talisa Eley, The Courier-Mail
September 19, 2018 7:07am
Subscriber only

THE state’s most deadly second-hand cars have been revealed as the RACQ surveys the best and worst used cars in the market.

The annual Used Car Safety Ratings report, led by Monash University, has revealed there is a stark difference between different models, despite similar price tags.

Disturbingly 107 of the car models studied were given ‘poor’ or ‘very poor’ marks for safety, mostly for cars manufactured in the 90s or early 2000s.

image
The Holden VR Commodore was given one of the worst marks for safety

Among the safest cars were brands including Audi, BMW, Jaguar and Volkswagen.

However Ford, Holden and Subaru featured on both the best and worst lists.

Researchers measured each model for safety, not only for the driver, but also for other road users.

RACQ Head of Technical and Safety Policy Steve Spalding said the data shows buyers can still pick up a good second-hand car, but they need to take a car’s safety rating into account.

“A person driving a one-star vehicle is almost twice as likely to be killed or seriously hurt than someone in a five-star car,” he said.

“Smart, safe choices needn’t hit you in the hip pocket. A safe used vehicle can be

picked up for less than $10,000.”

SAFEST

Audi A4/S4 B8/AllRoad/RS4 (2008-2015)

BMW 1 Series E81/E82/E87/E88 (2004-2013)

Ford Mondeo (2007-2015)

Holden Statesman/Caprice WM/WN (2006-2016)

Jaguar X-type (2002- 2010)

image
2006-2016 Holden Caprice models were some of the safest second-hand cars.

Mercedes Benz CLK C209 (2003-2009)

Mercedes Benz E-Class W212/C207/A207 (2009-2016)

Subaru Liberty/Legacy/Outback/Exiga (2009-2014)

Volkswagen Passat (2006-2015)

MOST DEADLY

Daewoo Cielo (1995-1997), Nubira/Lanos (1997-2003)

Daihatsu Applause (1989-1999)

Ford Falcon EF/EL (1994-1998)

Ford Laser (1995-1997)

Holden Commodore VR/VS/Lexcen (1993-1997)

Holden Commodore VT/VX (1997/2002)

Holden/Toyota Corolla/Nova (1994-1997), Toyota Corolla/Allex (1998-2001)

Holden Stateman/Caprice VR/VS (1994-1998)

Honda Civic (1996-2000)

Honda Prelude (1992-1996)

image
200-2006 Nissan Pulsar models rated poorly.

Hyundai Elantra/Accent (2000-2006)

Mazda 323/Familia/Lantis (1995-1998)

Mitsubishi Lancer/Mirage CE (1996-2003), Lancer CH (2003-2007)

Mitsubishi Magna TE/TF/TH/TJ/Verada KE/ 96-03 KF/KH/KJ/Diamante (1996-2003)

Nissan Pulsar/Bluebird Sylphy (2000-2005)

Subaru Impreza (1993-2000)

Subaru Liberty/Legacy/Outback (1994-1998)

Toyota Celica (1994-1999)

That makes me laugh a bit. Not at the list or anything, but as a kid the family had an ef, a daihatsu applause and a daewoo (not a model on the list but still). My ex wifes parents had a 94 holden nova for a long while too. Granted none were in accidents or anything, but all were 90s models and made the bad list. Out of the cars we had on the list, i think the ef would have faired the best in a collision mainly due to its size. Its a bit strange the jag xtype made the good list. My dad still has one. They arent quick enough to get out of their own way.

[Maka]

After 2005 most mainstream manufacturers pulled their finger out & got serious about building safer cars etc with the rest of the manufacturers already on the car/driver safety bandwagon leading the way.

cheers, Maka

[Franco Cozzo]

Good incentive not to stack my VS Caprice I'm rocking as the daily

[.:4:.]

Originally Posted by Maka

After 2005 most mainstream manufacturers pulled their finger out & got serious about building safer cars etc with the rest of the manufacturers already on the car/driver safety bandwagon leading the way.

cheers, Maka

Thats an interesting statement. Nothing bad about it. Safer cars are safer. Pretty simple. But the newer full on safety some new cars have take the driver out of the car. So things like airbags and aeb and stuff are great. Ive only ever had cars with airbags and abs. But what i see often enough with some people in newer cars with all the safety stuff like blindspot monitors and auto reverse parellel park features ( my mums car has that, so does my dads audi, he wont part with the jag) is people get used to it so when jumping into a rental or a mates car which may have the safety business sorted, they assume. A 2010 hilux doesnt have traction control for example. A newer driver who has only had experience a car that will catch that may freak out in the wet. The way technolagy has progressed is mad, but its the what if. Say you get thrown into an old car thats a manual with nothing. You should be able to drive it.

[FGX-351]

Is it really any surprise that 2nd gen commodores are on the list?
One quick look at the “chassis” is a good indicator of how rigid they aren’t.
My third gen has a proper chassis but would still probably crack in half like the rest of them if hit hard enough.
Falcons might be on that list too but imo they’ve always been sturdier than equivalent Holden’s.

[OzJavelin]

Moving measurement .. and using statistics to reverse engineer an answer.
Come back in 20 years and see how unsafe the "best" cars in this list are compared to current crop. The VR Acclaim was marketed as a very safe car in it's day .. default build with driver/passenger front airbags, ABS and IRS ..
I suspect most of the local cars on the "deadly" list are only there because so many of them still registered and being driven around, and not abandoned like all the Euro stuff from the same era.

[whitelion65]

I don't have time to go into the detail of the report. But I suspect it should read "The cars that are most and least crashed".
To get any meaningful conclusion, you need multiple crashes, under the same circumstance. Isn't that why they went to standard crash testing?
As mentioned in a few astute posts above, the demographics of the drivers probably has more to do with the safety rating than the intrinsic qualities of the car.
remember, this could be a simple student investigation that has been grabbed and blown out of all proportion.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by FGX-351

Is it really any surprise that 2nd gen commodores are on the list?
One quick look at the “chassis” is a good indicator of how rigid they aren’t.
My third gen has a proper chassis but would still probably crack in half like the rest of them if hit hard enough.
Falcons might be on that list too but imo they’ve always been sturdier than equivalent Holden’s.

I remember hearing the Commodore firewalls were glued in. Not welded.

Not sure how accurate that is though.

[whitelion65]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I remember hearing the Commodore firewalls were glued in. Not welded.

Not sure how accurate that is though.

Adhesive joints can be stronger than spot welding.
eg, Lotus Elise, the entire tub is glued together.
I can't see Holden using the same process 'though ;-)

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by OzJavelin

Moving measurement .. and using statistics to reverse engineer an answer.
Come back in 20 years and see how unsafe the "best" cars in this list are compared to current crop. The VR Acclaim was marketed as a very safe car in it's day .. default build with driver/passenger front airbags, ABS and IRS ..
I suspect most of the local cars on the "deadly" list are only there because so many of them still registered and being driven around, and not abandoned like all the Euro stuff from the same era.

^^^^ This guy has it got worked out.

The simple fact is that EF/EL Falcons & VR/VS Commodores are out there in big numbers, because they are cheap & reliable transport, even with big kms on the speedo. The Euro cars are in smaller numbers not driven by younger (bogan) drivers, but are in use by affluent families as the '2nd car'.

If I was involved in a serious prang, I would rather be sitting in a VR/VS or EF/EL instead of an E30 BMW or a VW Golf from the same period.

The demographic of the owner/driver or the number of cars actually out there on the street, has much more effect on the stats than the brand or type of car of car.

I am an engineer & can understand where stats go wrong, and there is one basic truth in life. There are lies, there are damn lies & there are statistics.

Look at our current political situation federally, the last 5 or 6 Prime Ministers have been toppled, not because of any popular election, but because of opinion polls. Stats gone wrong, big time.

Dr Terry

[MITCHAY]

Apparently my car is a 3 star rating despite it having a 4 star ANCAP rating. How does that work? Not that I care though just seems weird.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by whitelion65

Adhesive joints can be stronger than spot welding.
eg, Lotus Elise, the entire tub is glued together.
I can't see Holden using the same process 'though ;-)

The firewall has been glued in on Commodores since the 1988 VN.

The doors, boot lid & bonnet are made using glue also. The inner & outer skins are glued & pressed together. The edges are folded & there is no spot-welding. A major advantage with this process & there is nowhere for the rust to start.

I'm pretty sure most manufacturers use this process today.

Dr Terry

[FGX-351]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

The firewall has been glued in on Commodores since the 1988 VN.

The doors, boot lid & bonnet are made using glue also. The inner & outer skins are glued & pressed together. The edges are folded & there is no spot-welding. A major advantage with this process & there is nowhere for the rust to start.

I'm pretty sure most manufacturers use this process today.

Dr Terry

That’s quite interesting to learn.

[383hq]

Porsche have used adhesive fastening since 2001.
Slowly been increasing the % glued since this time.
In 2001 this was about 30% of body joints, today I believe it exceeds 60% of body joints in the 911.

At Boeing this is also quite common.

In both Falcon and Commodore, the windscreen is obviously glued in, but some would be surprised that this is considered a structural joint (torsional rigidity)

[BradEL]

Originally Posted by 383hq

Porsche have used adhesive fastening since 2001.
Slowly been increasing the % glued since this time.
In 2001 this was about 30% of body joints, today I believe it exceeds 60% of body joints in the 911.

At Boeing this is also quite common.

In both Falcon and Commodore, the windscreen is obviously glued in, but some would be surprised that this is considered a structural joint (torsional rigidity)

In VE/VF commodores the boot floor panel (in which the spare wheel sits) is a composite material and is held in by adhesive bonding instead of being spot welded in like the VTs and similar were.

[LG17]

I'm guessing this is their way of trying to get everyone to purchase later model vehicles so they can scrap the others...